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  1. #121

    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020


    Novak Djokovic Men's Singles Champion
    There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.Ē

    ― Frank Zappa





  2. #122

    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce* View Post
    ^ Yes, seriously.
    I don't want a sport (or a planet, for that matter) where everyone behaves outwardly pretty much the same. I prefer individuality and originality and uniqueness. And sometimes that individuality will take the form of being an ass. It's part of life.
    There are assholes in life, and there are decent people - and tennis (and all sports) should be an accurate reflection of real life. What's wrong with that?
    As well, when a player behaves like a fool (as in your Fognini example), he is revealing his true character - and so he's essentially letting everyone know that he's a disrespectful jerk. I think it's better that these people be revealed for who they are, rather than hide their real selves through phony 'politeness'.

    Don't misunderstand what I'm saying - I don't like what Kyrgios, Fognini, McEnroe, Connors, Nastase, etc. do/did on the tennis court. And, yes, extreme disrespectful actions should entail punishment of some sort. But I'll always be against the idea of forcing everyone to conform to one 'nice, polite' standard, and thus eliminate their unique character/personality.
    Whether you admit it or not, the players who behave badly are entertaining. And they provide a contrast - it provides a 'villain' to contrast the 'hero'; a 'bad guy' to counter the 'good guy'... which makes matches more interesting, as it adds an element that is not there when two 'good guys' play each other.
    It's bad enough that huge, obscenely rich corporations make many of the players dress alike - I don't want them to behave alike, too.

    My linesperson and umpire friends encourage me to become a linesman - but I tell them that I won't - "because when a player behaves like a jackass toward me, I'd throw it right back in his face - and that is apparently not permitted" (though perhaps it should be permitted).

    By the way - holding Roddick up as an example of 'good behaviour' is faulty... while he may have been respectful at times, there are many examples of him being arrogant and overtly disrespectful toward linespeople, umpires, and even opponents...
    This is an interesting topic. I hope you don't mind me chiming in. I agree with the point that it can be "fun" (though it's a warped meaning of the word) to have a villain to root against.

    However, I would actually chose "dishonest" civility over "honest" jerkiness. First, I think that a lot of times people who are being civil actually feel something quite different inside. But they respect other people enough to keep that inside. It's not that they are being dishonest. It's that they are being respectful.

    This discussion made me think of something that happened to me last year. Some homophobic idiot at the gym screamed derogatory words at me at the gym because I told him his language was inappropriate. The gym personnel talked to him, but he did it again. Months later he offered a fauxpology ("Sorry for not being politically correct. It was your fault too.") Every time I see him, it makes me uncomfortable. I would have MUCH rather he contained his horrible behavior and called me whatever he wanted to call me under his breath. I wouldn't have known what a jerk he is, but in the end, that doesn't really matter, and I would feel much more comfortable at the gym when he's there. Wouldn't lines people, ball kids, and chair umpires rather not have to deal with being screamed or cussed at, even though it isn't "honest"?

    Anyway, that's my 2 cents. And I totally agree that players wearing the same kits is really bad optics and frustrating as a viewer.

    Kevin

  3. #123

    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020

    By the way, on the Day 14 OoP and Discussion, I posted my assessment of the men's doubles' final. Ram and Salisbury played a near-perfect match to win in 2. Three unforced errors total and lots of amazing shots. GH

  4. #124
    Been playing a long while Deuce*'s Avatar
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    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Pattyfan View Post
    This is an interesting topic. I hope you don't mind me chiming in.
    ^ Not at all - every topic is open to everyone, regardless of their perspective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pattyfan View Post
    I agree with the point that it can be "fun" (though it's a warped meaning of the word) to have a villain to root against.

    However, I would actually chose "dishonest" civility over "honest" jerkiness. First, I think that a lot of times people who are being civil actually feel something quite different inside. But they respect other people enough to keep that inside. It's not that they are being dishonest. It's that they are being respectful.
    ^ I disagree with you here... I think that these people are not being respectful, as respect can only be genuine. Most often, they are 'behaving well' strictly to avoid whatever punishment might be in store for them if they show their true feelings. And so the 'good behaviour' is only optical; superficial... while deep down, the disrespect is as strong as ever, and now joined by a strong resentment because they have 'given in' and acted 'decently' for fear of repercussions. This will then lead them to be even more likely to speak badly against the people they disrespect behind their backs to others.
    So... I don't see a lot of positives here - except for the very superficial 'good behaviour', which to me is meaningless, as it's insincere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pattyfan View Post
    This discussion made me think of something that happened to me last year. Some homophobic idiot at the gym screamed derogatory words at me at the gym because I told him his language was inappropriate. The gym personnel talked to him, but he did it again. Months later he offered a fauxpology ("Sorry for not being politically correct. It was your fault too.") Every time I see him, it makes me uncomfortable. I would have MUCH rather he contained his horrible behavior and called me whatever he wanted to call me under his breath. I wouldn't have known what a jerk he is, but in the end, that doesn't really matter, and I would feel much more comfortable at the gym when he's there. Wouldn't lines people, ball kids, and chair umpires rather not have to deal with being screamed or cussed at, even though it isn't "honest"?
    ^ But if he did not express his feelings vocally to you, and instead held it in - while feeling the same way inside - then he'd be more likely to talk badly about you behind your back to others, as noted above.
    By expressing his disrespect directly to you, you at least become aware of how he feels, and you can also respond to him directly. I believe that this is a better scenario than if he is talking badly about you to others behind your back, and possibly turning others against you, without you knowing about it - as in that scenario, you don't have a chance to defend yourself because it is all happening outside of your sight.
    Last edited by Deuce*; 02-03-2020 at 04:16 AM.
    * Yes, it's me (last seen on TW boards in 2009).

  5. #125
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    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020

    Tennis players are PROFESSIONALS. The tennis court is their place of work. If they canít respect their colleagues and supervisors to a point where they are verbally abusing them, and making them fearful of violent outbursts, then they should be removed from that place of work, just like in the real world. And that is not even taking into account the fact that they are role models to millions of youngsters around the world who may think that this behaviour is normal or acceptable.

  6. #126
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    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce* View Post
    ^ Not at all - every topic is open to everyone, regardless of their perspective.



    ^ I disagree with you here... I think that these people are not being respectful, as respect can only be genuine. Most often, they are 'behaving well' strictly to avoid whatever punishment might be in store for them if they show their true feelings. And so the 'good behaviour' is only optical; superficial... while deep down, the disrespect is as strong as ever, and now joined by a strong resentment because they have 'given in' and acted 'decently' for fear of repercussions. This will then lead them to be even more likely to speak badly against the people they disrespect behind their backs to others.
    So... I don't see a lot of positives here - except for the very superficial 'good behaviour', which to me is meaningless, as it's insincere.


    ^ But if he did not express his feelings vocally to you, and instead held it in - while feeling the same way inside - then he'd be more likely to talk badly about you behind your back to others, as noted above.
    By expressing his disrespect directly to you, you at least become aware of how he feels, and you can also respond to him directly. I believe that this is a better scenario than if he is talking badly about you to others behind your back, and possibly turning others against you, without you knowing about it - as in that scenario, you don't have a chance to defend yourself because it is all happening outside of your sight.
    So you think itís better that the homophobe airs his honest opinions instead of keeping his mouth shut because thatís not his true nature?

    I know there are homophobic people at my workplace. Would I rather get a fake hello in the morning when I go in, or would I rather have them complaining about my sexuality. Of course I would rather have the fake hello. I could not care less what they say behind my back or whether they like me or not, but we should be civil to each other whatever the case
    Last edited by liam_valid; 02-03-2020 at 07:29 AM.

  7. #127

    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce* View Post
    ^ Not at all - every topic is open to everyone, regardless of their perspective.



    ^ I disagree with you here... I think that these people are not being respectful, as respect can only be genuine. Most often, they are 'behaving well' strictly to avoid whatever punishment might be in store for them if they show their true feelings. And so the 'good behaviour' is only optical; superficial... while deep down, the disrespect is as strong as ever, and now joined by a strong resentment because they have 'given in' and acted 'decently' for fear of repercussions. This will then lead them to be even more likely to speak badly against the people they disrespect behind their backs to others.
    So... I don't see a lot of positives here - except for the very superficial 'good behaviour', which to me is meaningless, as it's insincere.


    ^ But if he did not express his feelings vocally to you, and instead held it in - while feeling the same way inside - then he'd be more likely to talk badly about you behind your back to others, as noted above.
    By expressing his disrespect directly to you, you at least become aware of how he feels, and you can also respond to him directly. I believe that this is a better scenario than if he is talking badly about you to others behind your back, and possibly turning others against you, without you knowing about it - as in that scenario, you don't have a chance to defend yourself because it is all happening outside of your sight.
    I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. As I wrote above, I had no interest in hearing him scream slurs at me. It doesn't make me feel better now because I know how he feels. If I never knew that that's what he thought about gay guys, so much the better. And I don't really care what he says behind my back. I only have a few casual acquaintances at the gym, and none of them would care one whit was he said about me. For me, respect is also how you act towards another person even if you don't like them.

    As far as tennis goes, I also maintain that, for example, Fabio Fognini's honest slurs against women have no place in a work atmosphere, and saying that it is honest doesn't diminish the experience that the women may have, and I'm betting that they, like me, would rather have him hold it in and say nothing. And that would not excuse him having a bigger outburst later. He's an adult. He's supposed to learn how to treat all people, even people he doesn't like, respectfully. But I have a feeling I'm not going to convince you.

    Kevin

  8. #128
    Been playing a long while Deuce*'s Avatar
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    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Pattyfan View Post
    I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. As I wrote above, I had no interest in hearing him scream slurs at me. It doesn't make me feel better now because I know how he feels. If I never knew that that's what he thought about gay guys, so much the better. And I don't really care what he says behind my back. I only have a few casual acquaintances at the gym, and none of them would care one whit was he said about me. For me, respect is also how you act towards another person even if you don't like them.

    As far as tennis goes, I also maintain that, for example, Fabio Fognini's honest slurs against women have no place in a work atmosphere, and saying that it is honest doesn't diminish the experience that the women may have, and I'm betting that they, like me, would rather have him hold it in and say nothing. And that would not excuse him having a bigger outburst later. He's an adult. He's supposed to learn how to treat all people, even people he doesn't like, respectfully. But I have a feeling I'm not going to convince you.

    Kevin
    No, sorry, Kevin, but you won't convince me. I prefer to see the genuine person, even if it's ugly, and even if it's directed at me. I like to know who people are, be they good or bad. It's the ones who hide their true selves / their true feelings who are the most dangerous types. I don't view phony respect as being respect at all - it should not be referred to as 'respect', because it's not - it's simply behaviour fueled by fear of negative consequences, and does not alter how they truly feel at all.

    If someone thinks I'm a this or a that, it doesn't much bother me, because I know what and who I am. If I feel they've made a mistake in their evaluation of me, I may tell them - and if they refuse to listen, then fine - I won't lose any sleep over it. If someone says I'm a jackass because of something I said or did, that's their right. If they don't want to listen to my defense or explanation, it can be frustrating, but that's their right, too, I suppose. I won't consider myself a jackass just because someone thinks I am due to something I said or did, so it will have little to no effect on me.
    In a situation like yours, where someone criticizes you not for something you said or did, but for what you are, it's far more of a negative reflection of him than it is of you. If you don't feel his criticism of you is accurate, then why does it affect you negatively? One must consider the source of criticism... if the criticism is coming from a source you respect and admire, then yes, it can sting. But if it's coming from a loudmouth for whom you possess no respect, it shouldn't matter much what he says.

    "No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent." - Eleanor Roosevelt.
    * Yes, it's me (last seen on TW boards in 2009).

  9. #129

    Re: ATP WTA GS AusOpen 1/20-2/3 2020

    Miscellaneous thoughts after the Aussie Open:
    After Thiem won the third set of the final, I still was convinced Novak would come back. That is the effect he has at Melbourne. The score does not matter. Until the corpse is on the ground, wooden stake driven through the heart, he is still the favorite there.
    Maybe I am biased because I am a fan. But GarbiŮe sure loses a lot of matches from a set up. And not 7-6 in the third. Disappearing at 1-1 in the third. Wonder if it is the head, wonder if it is the stamina. But she sure can't close a match easily.
    Has anybody ever looked so unhappy on a court as Camila Giorgi? I do not need a shrink to tell that girl suffers on court. And the reason why is sitting on the player's box, doing something for her. I can't tell if it is rooting, scolding, frowning, scaring her. I will not be surprised one bit if in a few years we hear the Mirjana Lucic Story, part II, from this girl.
    My myopic point of view. But man, did I see a whole lot of missed swinging volleys.
    On that subject. I also saw a lot of players in the WTA being pushed out of the court, hitting a high lob that landed on the service line of the opponent, and the other player instead of taking it in the air with a smash or a good solid volley (not a swinging one, please) let it land and was pushed all the way back, to start the point again. I gather Navratilova was too busy correctly blasting Court, but that must have driven her crazy. It certainly drove me.
    TIME. CLOCK. Is on the wall. In large numbers. In front of you. It is the rule. Rafa, Novak: it can't be that hard. Just take three bounces less, that's all.
    I said this before: it does not matter if the new kids start beating Novak from now on 0-0 & 0. You never beat him, or Roger or Rafa. Time did.
    I know he is still three behind. And some twenty behind in regular tournaments. But Novak is firmly in control of that conversation about GOAT's and other adjectives. At some time, if you beat one guy consistently and always, you are simply better than him. I know, 5 years difference, but the subject can be brought to the table. The capra in the room.
    Novak/Rafa is no longer a rivalry. But Rafa/Thiem are producing some amazing tennis on the court. The entire four sets here and the two first sets at RG last year have been monstrous displays of power tennis.
    Roger. Call it quits. It will only mean you will become president of Switzerland one year earlier. That is not so bad.
    Bush fires made hundreds of tennis players donate money, in an worthy gesture from this community. Worthy causes, blokes and sheilas: Syrian refugees, some disease somewhere, people from a country that are leaving in hordes. You can do it.
    Quick: who wins Roland Garros in the women's? And while you are at it, what is the weight of a salted snail on the moon? The second is actually easier.
    Don't look now, and it won't last. He will win one sooner or later. But after the Aussie, Dominic Thiem is the best player never to win a slam. Time to at least make a phone call to Ivan Lendl.
    Last edited by ponchi101; 02-04-2020 at 07:46 AM.
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