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  1. #136

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Sorry, but one more comment on Green Book.....First, thanks JazzNU for your clarification. I thought you were getting mad at me as the messenger, but I felt better after reading the last note.

    I did look up some more about the segregation history of the Copa. The very first black performers were in 1929, the Berry Brothers. But the club had only infrequent black performers until the 1950's, largely because one of the managers who was later an owner, was Jules Podell, who had a "no blacks" policy for most of the 1940's. But starting in the 1950's, there were several black performers who were headliners, such as Harry Belafonte, whom you mention. The dining room was integrated in 1957 (from an article in the New York Post from 2011). It was shortly after that that Sammy Davis, Jr., was headlining at a time that there was a famous fight between some members of the New York Yankees and some drunks in the crowd who were heckling Davis (May 16, 1957). This incident is not mentioned in the movie Green Book, nor in any of the articles I have read about Mr. Lip. But in his job as bouncer, if he had been there that night, he would certainly have been involved, so I bet he wasn't there.

    The movie is set in 1962, so while the Copa certainly would have had very few black entertainers for most of the 25 years before that, there might have been a fair number of them in the 5-7 years just before the time-line of the movie.

    The movie certainly took some liberty with facts, and for that, it probably does deserve some of the pretty stern criticism it is getting.

    GH

  2. #137

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Glenn, I'm telling you right now, that's a glossy retelling of the club's history that isn't the way I think you're taking it. There's a lot of that during that time. The "integration' at that point would be selective at best. It would most certainly be a brown paper bag test only type of entry for anyone not famous at the very best. It's the kind of integration that had a family friend who was recently married have the wife go up to NYC to find their new apartment on Park Ave before his residency started and them thinking the husband would be as light skinned as the wife and trying to pull the contract for the co-op when they got a look at a fully brown man. That is NYC at that point in time. She was an acceptable black they didn't mind, he was the kind that they couldn't pretend he was something other than black. "Integration" was not doors flying open suddenly as I'm guessing you're thinking. It wasn't Brown v. Board with an order for things to change right now. Pictures tell the story. There are a ton of the Copacabana because it was a seen and be seen kind of place, but you will barely ever see a brown dot in the crowd that isn't on stage performing.

    If and that's a big if now unfortunately, when I talk to my great aunt next and she's having a lucid day, I'll ask her if she's ever been to the Copacabana. I know she used to go to The Cotton Club. She's never mentioned the Copacabana, but it's very possible she went, just not sure and if I can get a read on when she went. If she can remember, she'll recall it with good detail. She was a trip, well, she's still a trip honestly, even forgetful in her 90s.


    ETA: Actually, WTH am I talking about? Brown is a great example. An SC order for integration that didn't get implemented widely until a year later with Brown v. Board II that ordered desegregation with all deliberate speed. And plenty, especially in the South, still resisted and disobeyed the courts orders as long as they could. Because that's basically how integration happened then, it was not anything instantaneous, it was a long, painstaking process.
    Last edited by JazzNU; 02-11-2019 at 10:16 PM.

  3. #138

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    And for example (re Brown vs. Board), my school system had "partial" integration (similar in style to what you're suggesting actually happened at the Copa) starting in 1966, and full integration a year later. And that was done over kicking and screaming.

    I fear that you are simply right about the way the Copa "integrated." I don't have the first-hand knowledge you have, but that does make sense. If there is any defense for my naivetť on that subject, it would be that those of us, who witnessed how badly the treatment of blacks in the 50's and 60's in the South was, but who wanted it to be better, looked to the Northeast as a place that was getting it right. But even I knew I was wrong.....events like the chaos in Boston over bussing, which started in 1974, let me know that things weren't rosy there either. Still, however bad they were up there, I do remain convinced that it was worse where I was.

    All of us still have a lot to learn, and the country still has a very long way to go to be perfect on this subject.

    GH

  4. #139

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Oh it was definitely worse in the South, there's no getting around that. I don't mean to make this out to be the North was anywhere as bad as that, it just wasn't rosy and there was plenty of discrimination. Blacks just weren't received or accepted with anywhere near the openness that I think gets assumed at that point nationwide and that Tony Lip's son wants people to believe, which is so much of where this criticism stems from.

    And yeah, Boston. Philly is another one so similar to Boston with a shaky history well past the point that it should. With a racist mayor in the 70s who was a police chief before that, who proudly strip searched young black men in public, and we know this, because there are pictures. Charming. And yet still, yes, better in the North than in the South, which doesn't say much for the South I know, but there were far more indignities to deal with in general down there in addition to just blatant discrimination.

    Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with not knowing these things. That is why I said something when you mentioned more detail about the movie, just to point out how very much that does not feel like it reflects the time because I figure most wouldn't necessarily know that. I think the movie unfortunately takes advantage of that. I think you most may not hear a good deal of these things if you don't hear it directly from elder blacks who were alive at the time. I mean you can if you specifically seek it out like a Black History professor who digs for it would, you can hear if from the more vocal Civil Rights voices too, but the realities of the time are hardly captured well in written history to a large degree that gets widely disseminated.

  5. #140

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Another thing I'll say is that Green Book may not be my kind of movie, but it seems to have genuinely touched a good deal of people like it did Glenn, which I think is great. I'm glad it's having that kind of impact and people are taking away something positive from this. I just have concerns about the story accuracy and rewarding what appears to be a one-sided, exaggerated storytelling that was put forth as a truthful account of a "friendship" and that the studio very clearly didn't even perform a cursory background check on to vet the story. So it's really about Green Book winning Oscars for Best Picture and Best Screenplay, categories which it has already won at other award shows this year. The son, who is both the screenwriter and a producer, and the studio seem very undeserving of being rewarded so richly for this.

  6. #141

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Guillermo del Toro‏
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    @RealGDT

    If I may: I would not presume to suggest what categories to cut during the Oscars show but - Cinematography and Editing are at the very heart of our craft. They are not inherited from a theatrical tradition or a literary tradition: they are cinema itself.

    Alfonso Cuaron
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    @alfonsocuaron

    In the history of CINEMA, masterpieces have existed without sound, without color, without a story, without actors and without music. No one single film has ever existed without CINEMAtography and without editing.
    Last edited by JazzNU; 02-12-2019 at 08:51 AM.

  7. #142
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    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    This thread has caused me to do a lot of thinking about movies like Green Book, The Help and, to some extent, Driving Miss Daisy.

    By setting these films in the past, we can look back and feel good about how far we've come as a people (obviously, a long way to go, but progress and growth). But, considering what is going on now in our country's history, we have clearly not come that far, and are now hurtling backwards. So, maybe a film like The Help is not aging well in that respect. But, the actors are so on top of their game in The Help (and Green Book for that matter), I think it helps overcome some of those hurdles.

  8. #143
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    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by shtexas View Post
    This thread has caused me to do a lot of thinking about movies like Green Book, The Help and, to some extent, Driving Miss Daisy.

    By setting these films in the past, we can look back and feel good about how far we've come as a people (obviously, a long way to go, but progress and growth). But, considering what is going on now in our country's history, we have clearly not come that far, and are now hurtling backwards. So, maybe a film like The Help is not aging well in that respect. But, the actors are so on top of their game in The Help (and Green Book for that matter), I think it helps overcome some of those hurdles.
    I also understand that distortion can be damaging as well.

  9. #144
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    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    I was looking at the Oscar predictions for the top 24 users at Gold Derby (the 24 who are the most accurate there), and in only one category are they unanimous.

    You would think maybe Best Director? No. Cuaron 23, Lee 1

    Maybe best supporting actor? No. Ali 22, Grant 1, Elliott 1

    Surely, foreign language film! No. Roma 23, Cold War 1

    Instead, it is animated short. Bao 24

  10. #145

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    That group had La La Land in a landslide. Just saying.

  11. #146
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    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    I guess the backlash was fierce. All categories will now be presented live.

    Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

  12. #147

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Shtexas, I hadn't heard that but I absolutely think this is the correct decision. GH

  13. #148
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    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    I watched Free Solo last night (it's available for purchase on Amazon now). It was WILD.

    1. He is completely nuts. Of course.
    2. The film crew were all professional rock climbers. They did an unbelievable job. What a technical film making achievement.
    3. They did a good job getting inside his head and motivation. See #1.

    Absolutely recommend it, especially the last 20 minutes when he climbs El Capitan.

  14. #149

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Free Solo is considered the favorite to win the Feature-length documentary Oscar.

    And as for Documentaries.....Today I went to see the nominees for Documentary Short Subjects. I have not seen what the pundits are predicting for the win. So here is my ranking of the 5. For some reason, I didn't have trouble ranking them....no near ties. All were excellent, but I definitely was left with this impression of them:

    1. End Game.....speaking as an oncologist, this movie was a REALLY good look at what patients and families go through when the palliative care and Hospice issues are optimally presented.

    2. Lifeboat.....pretty gripping look at rescue operations for refugees trying to cross the Mediterranean.

    3. Period. End of Sentence....Very interesting. Dry would really like this, I think. Gender issues looked at through the issue of how women in a rural society in India deal with menstruation, in a place where the subject has long been taboo, and a program that is helping them.

    4. Black Sheep....Still excellent, but there was much more I felt could have been done with this story.

    5. A Night at the Garden....This was a very brief look at an event that looks even more fascinating historically the further away from 1939 we get. I couldn't believe it was as short as it was. There was MUCH more that could have been told about that night, and much more that I would have liked to see (I've read other accounts of the same night).

    I'll likely see the animated and live action shorts in the next couple of days.

    GH

  15. #150

    Re: 2019 Oscars Noms and Discussion

    Free Solo is interesting because of the subject and the subject matter but it isn’t exceptional filmmaking. And I saw it in IMAX.
    Towel Avatar, do your thing!

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