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  1. #46

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's a common argument mentioned that I've always had a problem with (Wertheim brings it up a lot):

    Djokovic being considered mean/rude is mostly due to everyone loving Federer and Nadal (or that's a significant factor).

    Perfectly fine to think that adds a percentage. He has played the role of the usurper, upsetting the apple cart. So sure, it's something to consider.

    However, I think bringing that up first is a sign of ignoring other, obvious problems. I see it as a guy who's 5'5" (and also a huge asshole) saying the only reason he can't get dates is his small stature.

    I think Djokovic has a barely contained rage. I think he makes an effort to be a statesman, like Federer and Nadal, but it's not natural. When he wins a big point or match, he doesn't do a fist pump or a smirk, he wants to do a full war dance and bathe in blood. When he's upset, he doesn't want to briefly complain to the chair or mutter, he wants to tell the crowd to shut the f*** up, or mimic throwing a ball at the umpire's face (those 2 examples happened this tournament), or violently rip the towel away from a frightened ball kid. He wants to retire from a match and say he totally had it under control, or hire a bizarre guru, or have wacky health diets and medical contraptions, or fire his entire team twice.

    This is not the case of an unenlightened community tearing down a poor innocent.

    Federer is arrogant, but serene. Nadal is particular, but ebullient. Djokovic is militant, but thoughtful. It's possible for a lot of people to think all three of those, regardless of fandom.

  2. #47

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by shtexas View Post
    I admit I used to say bad things about Justine. She had a beautiful game, but I could never get past the hand.

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    That, and the lame default in the Australian Open final, and that Carlos Rodriguez's on court coaching was so egregious between every point that he did everything except push her from side to side and move her arms for her.
    I don't deny myself bread. I have bread every day.

  3. #48

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Lol at all the hate aimed at Justine because of the hand. Yet Serena gets a pass for the shove the ball down your throat incident. Remember in that incident Serena lied too. The Chair asked her did she say that to the line judge, and she said no. Of course court side cameras proved otherwise. Oh our selective memory.

    Lot of good points made here about why Djokovic isn't more loved but I still say, his biggest curse is coming on the scene after Fed/Nadal. Murray came next but he came with the interesting story line of a Brit actually having a chance at winning Wimbledon.
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  4. #49

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    I haven't forgotten, but that wasn't cheating.
    I don't deny myself bread. I have bread every day.

  5. #50

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie02123 View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's a common argument mentioned that I've always had a problem with (Wertheim brings it up a lot):

    Djokovic being considered mean/rude is mostly due to everyone loving Federer and Nadal (or that's a significant factor).

    Perfectly fine to think that adds a percentage. He has played the role of the usurper, upsetting the apple cart. So sure, it's something to consider.

    However, I think bringing that up first is a sign of ignoring other, obvious problems. I see it as a guy who's 5'5" (and also a huge asshole) saying the only reason he can't get dates is his small stature.

    I think Djokovic has a barely contained rage. I think he makes an effort to be a statesman, like Federer and Nadal, but it's not natural. When he wins a big point or match, he doesn't do a fist pump or a smirk, he wants to do a full war dance and bathe in blood. When he's upset, he doesn't want to briefly complain to the chair or mutter, he wants to tell the crowd to shut the f*** up, or mimic throwing a ball at the umpire's face (those 2 examples happened this tournament), or violently rip the towel away from a frightened ball kid. He wants to retire from a match and say he totally had it under control, or hire a bizarre guru, or have wacky health diets and medical contraptions, or fire his entire team twice.

    This is not the case of an unenlightened community tearing down a poor innocent.

    Federer is arrogant, but serene. Nadal is particular, but ebullient. Djokovic is militant, but thoughtful. It's possible for a lot of people to think all three of those, regardless of fandom.
    Yeah, Wertheim often boils it down to that. He might be aware of the nuances, but doesn't drill down when the issue comes up. Wertheim's opinion means a lot to me. I trust him and take some cues from him. I don't agree with all of his opinions, but I trust his assessments of players. He sees exponentially more of them than I do.

    Re Novak, I don't see a contrived stage presence, insecurity, militant-ness, effort to be a statesman. I think he's utterly natural, and good-natured and effusive and charming. I think he beams. Blue dress, white dress. I'm not arguing with you. Just contributing to the back and forth.
    Last edited by MeganFernandez; 07-16-2018 at 08:56 PM.
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  6. #51

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by JTContinental View Post
    I haven't forgotten, but that wasn't cheating.
    Some think it was just as bad - abusive. I'm not a Serena fan or a hater, and I give her a pass for this. Just as I give Justine a pass for The Hand. Everyone deserves some passes. And coaching doesn't really bother me, either. Mid-match coaching isn't sacred to me. I'm all for it.
    Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.

  7. #52

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie02123 View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's a common argument mentioned that I've always had a problem with (Wertheim brings it up a lot):

    Djokovic being considered mean/rude is mostly due to everyone loving Federer and Nadal (or that's a significant factor).

    Perfectly fine to think that adds a percentage. He has played the role of the usurper, upsetting the apple cart. So sure, it's something to consider.

    However, I think bringing that up first is a sign of ignoring other, obvious problems. I see it as a guy who's 5'5" (and also a huge asshole) saying the only reason he can't get dates is his small stature.

    I think Djokovic has a barely contained rage. I think he makes an effort to be a statesman, like Federer and Nadal, but it's not natural. When he wins a big point or match, he doesn't do a fist pump or a smirk, he wants to do a full war dance and bathe in blood. When he's upset, he doesn't want to briefly complain to the chair or mutter, he wants to tell the crowd to shut the f*** up, or mimic throwing a ball at the umpire's face (those 2 examples happened this tournament), or violently rip the towel away from a frightened ball kid. He wants to retire from a match and say he totally had it under control, or hire a bizarre guru, or have wacky health diets and medical contraptions, or fire his entire team twice.

    This is not the case of an unenlightened community tearing down a poor innocent.

    Federer is arrogant, but serene. Nadal is particular, but ebullient. Djokovic is militant, but thoughtful. It's possible for a lot of people to think all three of those, regardless of fandom.
    This is a good description of what appears to be his personality. What people also forget when discussing why Djokovic is not a fan favorite is a nick name he is called by some fan: Fakervic.

    He doesn't go into that act now but I know my dislike of him comes from when he was playing Monfils at the US Open years ago. At some point in the match he looked as if he was about to keel over and meet his maker. Monfils, as most normal human beings would, was concerned. Next thing you know he's running around like a gazelle and hitting winners from everywhere.

    Then there were the asthma attacks that would mysteriously appear and disappear depending on how the match was going.

    The nastiness has been well documented.

    I Know that people grow up and mature but I always feel that those issues disappeared when he realized the impression he was making on fans or would be fans.

    I've mellowed a bit and started following one of his rabid fans on Twitter but as someone said during the tournament the "tell them to shut the eff up" comment that he tried to hide behind his hand forgetting that the camera would have a side view, and fake throwing a ball at the chair are what has replaced the antics of his youth.

    Anger? I don't know. His hard core fans seem to believe that the dislike comes from anti Eastern European bias. For me that is not the case.
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  8. #53
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    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie02123 View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's a common argument mentioned that I've always had a problem with (Wertheim brings it up a lot):

    Djokovic being considered mean/rude is mostly due to everyone loving Federer and Nadal (or that's a significant factor).
    You don't think that's a thing? I'd argue that's definitely a thing. Curious. A few folks here have argued that Djokovic is maligned, in large part, because he came after Federer and Nadal (after folks had already chosen sides, I think it was ponchi?). I guess I have generally been sympathetic to that argument.
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  9. #54
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    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    This is a good description of what appears to be his personality. What people also forget when discussing why Djokovic is not a fan favorite is a nick name he is called by some fan: Fakervic.

    He doesn't go into that act now but I know my dislike of him comes from when he was playing Monfils at the US Open years ago. At some point in the match he looked as if he was about to keel over and meet his maker. Monfils, as most normal human beings would, was concerned. Next thing you know he's running around like a gazelle and hitting winners from everywhere.

    Then there were the asthma attacks that would mysteriously appear and disappear depending on how the match was going.
    Something else that is well documented as it relates to Novak was his breathing problems. If I remember correctly, he had surgery to correct a deviated septum? Or something to that effect.

    I remember that incident and was immediately turned off by him. I watched it unfold.

    And then I read about the subsequent health problems and decided, for myself, well, maybe I want to rethink that.

    EDIT: And he was how old then? 20? EDIT EDIT: I'm pretty sure that was their first round match at the USO in 2005 when Novak was 18.

    How many of us want to be held responsible for perceptions people had of us when we were 18, but what was happening with us at age 18 was (potentially) legit?
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  10. #55

    '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by dryrunguy View Post
    Something else that is well documented as it relates to Novak was his breathing problems. If I remember correctly, he had surgery to correct a deviated septum? Or something to that effect.

    I remember that incident and was immediately turned off by him. I watched it unfold.

    And then I read about the subsequent health problems and decided, for myself, well, maybe I want to rethink that.

    EDIT: And he was how old then? 20?
    Yeah he had a rep for tanking some matches, but who really knows what he was feeling. And yes, he had surgery for a deviated septum. And I agree, it was a long time ago.

    It never occured to me that some of the Djokovic backlash comes from following Fed and Nadal. I dont personally see the connection - like he ruined the party or something? It never crossed my mind. Huh.

    I always thought that most of his detractors had legitimate distaste for his game and the way they perceive his attitude.



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    Last edited by MeganFernandez; 07-16-2018 at 09:34 PM.
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  11. #56

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by dryrunguy View Post
    EDIT: And he was how old then? 20? EDIT EDIT: I'm pretty sure that was their first round match at the USO in 2005 when Novak was 18.

    How many of us want to be held responsible for perceptions people had of us when we were 18, but what was happening with us at age 18 was (potentially) legit?
    You specifically took hold of an example at 20 instead of the two that happened this tournament.

    How could anyone form an opinion about you based on a consistent pattern that you exhibited at age 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31? How could anyone ever make such a snap judgement based on consistent patterns from all of your professional life?

    If 18-31 is too little time to form an opinion about any professional tennis player, wouldn't anything positive you say about a player be hypocritical?

    Should we be tracking down some 85 year old and berating him or her based on one outburst at 18? No. Can we form reasonable opinions about professional adults, based on their ENTIRE adulthood? Yes.

  12. #57

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    I don't like Nole because of his theatrics. This is a guy who might be clobbering his opponent and has a hissy fit over a missed ball.

    The ingracing with the crowds comes off as forced and intentional with a clear purpose, not a natural expression.
    Meet again we do, old foe...

  13. #58

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by dryrunguy View Post
    You don't think that's a thing? I'd argue that's definitely a thing. Curious. A few folks here have argued that Djokovic is maligned, in large part, because he came after Federer and Nadal (after folks had already chosen sides, I think it was ponchi?). I guess I have generally been sympathetic to that argument.
    NOPE. NOPITTY NOPE, wasn't me
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  14. #59
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    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    I think we tend to look more critically at players we dislike, and are easily irritated by them.

  15. #60

    Re: '18 Wimby Day 13 OoP & Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by shtexas View Post
    I think we tend to look more critically at players we dislike, and are easily irritated by them.
    Absolutely. Confirmation bias. It doesnt mean people cant legitimately dislike a player, but once we do, this can ensure.


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