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  1. #4021
    Been playing a long while Deuce*'s Avatar
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    Re: Covid19 & Tennis

    Quote Originally Posted by dryrunguy View Post
    I am saying that people of color, not white people, are the experts on the matter. And we should respect that. Their lived experience provides them with insights and nuances we as white people do not grasp until we learn to do so.

    It is more constructive and useful if we listen to them and consider their perspectives rather than going so far out of our way to invalidate their lived experience and expertise.

    It is a choice. What's more important to me? To consider an opinion freely offered by a person of color? Or to protect the reputation of a white man and go far out of my way to invalidate and belittle the opinion of a person of color?
    ^ But it's somehow fine for you to invalidate my perspective just because I'm white??
    That's pure hypocrisy.
    If I were a black person and had written exactly what I've written, would my words somehow be more true or valid? Nonsense!

    I believe there have been several black players on the ATP tour over the many years Isner has been on the tour. I've never heard so much as a whisper of any of them accusing Isner of anything approaching racism. Are you saying that JazzNu somehow knows better than the players and media persons (of all colours and nationalities) who have been on the tour with Isner over the years? That JazzNu has some special secret insight into Isner that those who know and knew him much better never achieved? If that's the case, I'm sure we all would love to see what this special secret insight is...

    John Isner has done nothing to 'JazzNU' personally. If Isner had done something truly racist to JazzNu personally, I might see your point better, depending on the circumstances. But as it is, JazzNu's accusation of racism is without solid foundation or evidence, without corroboration from players and media personnel who've known Isner PERSONALLY for many years, and seems to be based more on JazzNU's personal dislike of Isner than on solid evidence- even though JazzNU does not know Isner personally.

    When I wrote my posts about the accusation of Isner being a racist, I had no idea if JazzNU was white or black - and I didn't care, because I am looking for objective perspectives, and objective perspectives possess no colour. Now that I've been informed that JazzNu is black, I would not change a thing that I've written - because I am simply encouraging objectivity. And if JazzNU were white, I also would not change anything I've written.

    I have seen blatant prejudice on both sides - from both black people and white people.
    I have seen blatant racism toward black people from white people, and I have seen blatant racism toward white people from black people.
    I have seen white people not recognizing actual racism toward black people, and I have seen black people fabricating racism toward black people which was not actually present in reality.
    Anyone who lives life honestly and with their eyes open has seen all of these things, as well.

    For you, or anyone, to say that white people are less capable of being objective than are black people on the subject of racism is absurd. Just as it would be equally absurd for anyone to say that black people are less capable of being objective about racism than are white people.
    One need not experience prejudice or unfairness in order to be able to recognize it.
    Last edited by Deuce*; 04-05-2020 at 06:44 PM.
    * Yes, it's me (last seen on TW boards in 2009).

  2. #4022

    Re: Covid19 & Tennis

    Quote Originally Posted by mmmm8 View Post
    Jazz,

    1. I must have completely missed the Laver Cup incident. I'd watched none of Laver Cup and I think I didn't read the entire thread here because it was an especially busy period at work. I googled and can't find what happened, unfortunately, but trust your word. If that's the case, that's appalling.
    2. My point, based on personal interactions with/observations of him, was that he is nice in interactions with other people. I didn't deny him being racist, just noted that you'd think someone with exposure to such a variety of people would make someone less ignorant. I guess the implication in my post that you reacted to is that he isn't malicious... IMHO, one can be a nice person and racist at the same time.
    Megan saw it while watching Laver Cup, freeze framed it and posted the picture of it on here herself. But that's part of my point. Megan is part of tennis media and did nothing with that information. They will not touch this information, it is much too harmful to their business.

    A ton of stuff that Isner did has been deleted from social media. You can still easily see his leanings, but following Sandgren getting exposed in particular his media team (and those of many of the American players) very clearly went back and deleted a ton of the stuff he had previously done. So the impression of him can be highly skewed unlike Sandgren who didn't get a chance to delete that stuff he posted and liked, similar to many other athletes who have suddenly gotten their moment in the spotlight for the first time in recent years. But people saw it at the time and saw how bad it was,. There is a reason that if you go on social media, Isner is regularly referenced at the same time as Sandgren. Sandgren has similarly deleted a lot of his stuff, so if you hadn't seen it happening then, you'd think better of him now than most of us do. They can delete it all they want, doesn't mean it never happened and many of us will always remember it. That when everything was happening with Isner's coach Mr. Aggravated Assault himself aka Justin Gimelstob, it came back up again because it seems to be related that he's very permissive of objectionable behavior.

    You can absolutely be nice to someone and racist behind their back. That is most racists, only a select few put on a sheet. I don't consider that niceness sincere, but that's what it can appear to be. When someone is in NYC and says they can't wait to get back South to "God's country" they aren't being nice and a bit homesick, they are basically being John Rocker with fewer words.

  3. #4023

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    The Miami final would have been today, right? Because it would have been damn good, I bet.
    Not to mention yesterday's final. The women really put on a show
    Face it. It's the apocalypse.

  4. #4024

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Tennis Canada
    @TennisCanada
    HOLD THE PHONE.
    Bianca Andreescu?
    Doing a Q&A?
    Monday at 1pm ET? On @TennisCanada's IG story?

    It's true. Get your questions ready for reigning US Open champ
    @Bandreescu_and submit them tomorrow morning on our Instagram story. ����
    “No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up.” – Lily Tomlin.




  5. #4025

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    HOLD THE PHONE!
    A Canadian Slam winner? Inconceivable!

  6. #4026

    Re: Covid19 & Tennis

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce* View Post
    ^ Are you saying that people of colour are more objective about spotting true racism than are 'white people'? And/or that it's perfectly ok for someone to accuse a person he/she does not know of being a racist on a public forum?
    If you're saying either or both of these things, I say B.S. to that.

    The people most capable of accurately spotting true racism is any objective person of any nationality or colour who does not judge people by their nationality or by the colour of their skin - period.
    And it's not ok for anyone to accuse a person they don't know of racism on a public forum without irrefutable proof of such. Especially when the accused is not present on the public forum to defend himself.
    Just stop it Deuce. Your posts on this subject are just distasteful.
    Towel Avatar, do your thing!

  7. #4027

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    "Beyond the Baseline: Power Tennis Myth or Menace" 1991 feature beginning the Seles vs Capriati US Open match.

    It's actually about wood vs new racquets that enable what they're calling "rock and roll tennis".

    Looking back it walks up to but doesn't cross the border with hilarious.
    “No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up.” – Lily Tomlin.




  8. #4028
    Been playing a long while Deuce*'s Avatar
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    Re: Covid19 & Tennis

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles View Post
    Just stop it Deuce. Your posts on this subject are just distasteful.
    No.
    Absolutely not.
    * Yes, it's me (last seen on TW boards in 2009).

  9. #4029

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    The other interesting comment was made during the first set when Carillo said Monica wasn't going in for all the weight training women players were starting to do. She went on to say that Monica said she was a butter fanatic and put it on everything.

    Also Armstrong was still CC. Ashe opened in 1997.
    “No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up.” – Lily Tomlin.




  10. #4030

    Re: Covid19 & Tennis

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles View Post
    Just stop it Deuce. Your posts on this subject are just distasteful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce* View Post
    No.
    Absolutely not.
    I am not defending Deuce. I am neither condoning him or condemning him.
    But if us at this forum cannot accept a dissenting opinion on a touchy subject, then we are in our own bubble. If we cannot accept an opinion that is different from ours, then we are no better than a Fox News audience.
    But I also believe that we have always been elegant and civil when expressing ourselves. So perhaps a more cordial tone can be struck, while talking about our ideas.
    Face it. It's the apocalypse.

  11. #4031

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    The other interesting comment was made during the first set when Carillo said Monica wasn't going in for all the weight training women players were starting to do. She went on to say that Monica said she was a butter fanatic and put it on everything.

    Also Armstrong was still CC. Ashe opened in 1997.
    When she came back after the stabbing, she obviously had the psychological scars, but also had grown a few inches so a new body, and with her lack of weight/stamina training -- it all played a role in her never being the same again.
    Towel Avatar, do your thing!

  12. #4032

    Re: Covid19 & Tennis

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchi101 View Post
    I am not defending Deuce. I am neither condoning him or condemning him.
    But if us at this forum cannot accept a dissenting opinion on a touchy subject, then we are in our own bubble. If we cannot accept an opinion that is different from ours, then we are no better than a Fox News audience.
    But I also believe that we have always been elegant and civil when expressing ourselves. So perhaps a more cordial tone can be struck, while talking about our ideas.
    I hear what you are saying, but the topic is more than touchy. It is how many people have experienced the world from the day they were born. It gets EXHAUSTING to be constantly told that it isn't that bad, that it's not really racist, that you're overreacting, etc. I would actually say that people have been pretty restrained here.

    Kevin

  13. #4033

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Many of us are refugees from the old ESPN board where things got toxic to put it mildly. The mods work hard to keep this a place for civil conversation regardless of the topic.

    There can never be a winner in this conversation. I hope people will agree to disagree.
    “No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up.” – Lily Tomlin.




  14. #4034

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    A Tennis Coach Was Abusing Minors. Should the Sport’s Federation Have Known?
    The United States Tennis Association has asserted it can police itself when it comes to abuse cases. The story of one coach raises doubts.

    By David W. Chen
    April 4, 2020

    RICHMOND, Calif. — At a meeting in Chicago in September 2014, the head of the United States Olympic Committee took note that a new initiative to protect athletes from abusers had support from every sport’s governing body except one: the United States Tennis Association.

    Gordon Smith, the tennis association’s executive director and chief operating officer at the time, stepped forward to explain, according to minutes of the meeting. He objected to a “single mandatory national entity” overseeing abuse cases across federations and, over the objections of representatives for gymnastics, volleyball and wrestling, he said that a sport should be able to “opt out of the centralized structure” if it could police itself.

    Whether the U.S.T.A. could police itself, though, was another matter.

    Just months earlier, a prominent U.S.T.A. coach from the Bay Area had been arrested a second time on charges of abusing one of his teenage players.

    That coach, Normandie Burgos, would go on to coach for three more years, until 2017, when yet another abused player, working with the police, secretly recorded him admitting to having sex with a minor. Convicted last May of 60 counts of child molestation, Burgos, 56, is now serving a 255-year prison sentence.

    There is no public record of the U.S.T.A. having taken any action against Burgos. Despite being a convicted sex offender, he is not listed in the database of the U.S. Center for SafeSport, an independent body created to track abusive coaches, trainers and others with access to athletes.



    Normandie Burgos in court in 2006, when he was arrested and accused of molesting students at the high school where he coached tennis. The case ended in a mistrial after jurors could not reach a verdict.Credit...Frankie Frost/Marin Independent Journal

    Burgos’s ability to have direct access to children for so many years lies at the heart of a new lawsuit filed by one of his victims against the U.S.T.A., its Northern California affiliate and the coach’s tennis charity. The charity also ran afoul of tax laws, records show.

    The case highlights one of the most pressing questions about sports in America: the extent to which governing bodies, like the U.S.T.A. or even the United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee, are accountable for coaches under their umbrella who abuse children.

    The tennis player who recorded Burgos, Stevie Gould, said he was repeatedly abused for two years, including at hotels during U.S.T.A. tournaments in other states. “The light bulb went off” to report what was happening, he said, when the coach started to groom another, younger player for sex. That player was the child of working-class immigrants and, like Gould, was given free rackets, clothes and lessons.

    “I could see the patterns” of targeting vulnerable children, Gould, 19, said in an interview at his parents’ home in Marin County, Calif. “I could see the kid becoming more and more indebted to Burgos.”

    Said his mother, Mary Gould, “He rose up and stood up for all of the others who could have been next.”

    Chris Widmaier, a U.S.T.A. spokesman, said, “We’re not going to comment on specific litigation, but we are quite confident that we acted in the appropriate manner.”

    He said the association had taken the position in 2014 that other sports could not match what he described as the organization’s yearslong and well-financed effort to make athlete safety a top priority.

    “We didn’t want to go backwards,” Widmaier said. Since then, however, the organization has endorsed the Olympic committee’s initiative, which became the U.S. Center for SafeSport in 2017.

    Yet SafeSport compiles lists based largely on action taken by federations, which is why the disciplinary procedures of those organizations tend to be the focus of scrutiny and complaints.

    Alex Rodriguez, the mother of a player Burgos had coached who was not abused, contended that the U.S.T.A. “dropped the ball, because they made it appear like this was a safe place for the kids to go. Shouldn’t there have been more oversight from the U.S.T.A. about him interacting with children?”

    An immigrant from the Philippines, Burgos grew up in Southern California as the son of a U.S. Navy veteran who had worked in the White House as a cook, according to a police report. A former college tennis player, Burgos became a popular teacher and coach at Tamalpais High School, part of an affluent community amid the leafy, rugged hills of Marin County. Burgos catapulted a bottom-rung team into a Marin powerhouse. Appreciative parents sent him on an all-expenses-paid trip to Wimbledon one year, according to court documents and interviews.

    Then, in 2006, Burgos was arrested after students reported that he had touched them inappropriately during massages and various physical exams.

    He was fired from the school, and his teaching credentials were revoked, but a large and vociferous band of tennis players and their parents rallied around him. They swarmed court hearings and public meetings, unnerving witnesses, Lori E. Frugoli, who prosecuted the case and is now Marin’s district attorney, recalled during an interview at her office. Supporters also raised at least $15,000 for his legal expenses, parents said.

    According to transcripts from the trial in 2010, one student testified that Burgos had put a sleeping mask over his head and eyes, supposedly to help him relax, before massaging him and touching his penis.

    Yet jurors could not reach a verdict. A mistrial was declared. And Burgos, a gay man who had accused his critics of homophobia, became emboldened, prosecutors now say, doubling down on his efforts to become one of the region’s leading figures in youth tennis.

    He created the Burgos Tennis Foundation and offered gritty instruction at half the price of private clubs. He stressed intense conditioning and relished using well-worn tennis balls to practice on rundown public courts. Marketing himself as being “certified as a trainer at the highest levels” by the United States Professional Tennis Association, he received U.S.T.A. travel grants allowing his teams to represent Northern California in national tournaments, according to interviews and records. He required pupils to earn good grades, and he sponsored an annual U.S.T.A. event geared toward underprivileged children.

    Burgos’s pitch, several parents said, was that his foundation was a nonprofit and that he received funding from the U.S.T.A. to help level the playing field for disadvantaged players.

    He drove his favorite players across the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, past San Quentin State Prison, for private lessons and workouts at his condominium complex in Richmond.

    Then Burgos got into trouble again. In 2014, a top player told the police he had been abused for almost two years, beginning at age 14.

    Burgos had persuaded the athlete, who was raised by a single mother in subsidized housing in Marin County, and at least one other boy to switch to an alternative high school with a flexible schedule, in order to carve out more one-on-one practice time.

    “I was super excited to play on the team and play actual matches with U.S.T.A. refs, U.S.T.A. coaches, and against U.S.T.A. teams,” said the player who went to the police in 2014.

    But Burgos demanded oral copulation and other sex acts, court documents said. When the boy refused, Burgos withheld gear or practice time, and threatened to derail his college recruitment, prosecutors said.

    The boy reported the abuse to the police and to the U.S.T.A. But absent corroborating evidence, Burgos was released.

    Burgos next targeted Gould, another top prospect who dreamed of playing college tennis.

    “Both of these boys realized that these doors of opportunity that were being opened could have just as easily been closed if they refused,” Jordan R. Sanders, a Contra Costa deputy district attorney who tried the case, said in an interview at his office. “They realized, ‘He could easily blacklist me or say don’t recruit me.’”

    Looking back, Gould wonders if tennis officials were trying to act against Burgos as early as 2015. At the U.S.T.A. Junior Team Tennis national championships in South Carolina that year, just months after Burgos had begun abusing him, Gould was told shortly before a match that his coach would not be allowed on the court.

    Steve Leube, then the executive director of U.S.T.A. Northern California, who delivered the message to the Goulds, did not provide a reason at the time, the family said. Burgos coached and molested Gould for two more years.

    “It was very confusing,” said Gould, now a tennis player at the University of San Francisco.

    Reached by phone, Leube said, “I didn’t know about this lawsuit, so I’m not going to be able to comment at this time.”

    The current executive director, Kevin Craig, did not respond to messages.

    After reporting the abuse in February 2017, Gould confronted Burgos on a tennis court and, at the direction of the police, used a hidden wire to record what the coach was saying and to videotape him. But Burgos, perhaps wary, created enough background noise so that his voice was not effectively recorded.

    The police arranged a second meeting, during which Burgos confirmed the crimes to Gould while being recorded. As Gould drove away, tailed by Burgos, police officers surrounded the coach and arrested him.

    Burgos was sentenced in August 2019 to 255 years in prison, despite letters from tennis parents and others asking for leniency. One longtime high school coach, calling the program “a refuge for many players,” credited Burgos with instilling “discipline, resiliency and toughness in those students.”

    Michael Coffino, a lawyer for Burgos, said, “There were significant legal errors in the trial that are on appeal right now, so I can’t comment further at this time.”

    What confounds Laurie Kimbrel, the Tamalpais schools superintendent who pushed to revoke Burgos’s credentials, is that no one in the tennis establishment contacted the district to vet Burgos after the well-publicized 2010 trial.

    “You can literally Google someone’s name and teaching certificate, and find out it was a permanent revocation,” said Kimbrel, now a professor of education at the University of West Georgia. “There’s no bigger red flag than that.”

    Another red flag was Burgos’s foundation. He never registered the charity, and the state’s Franchise Tax Board suspended the foundation in 2013 for failing to file any tax returns.

    After inquiries from The New York Times in February, Xavier Becerra, the California attorney general, demanded that the foundation cease doing business and fined it $9,000 for a slew of violations. Becerra also ordered the preservation of all communications with donors and other records — a possible prelude to charges.

    The athlete who reported Burgos in 2014 anonymously filed a lawsuit in January in Alameda County, contending that the U.S.T.A. knew of Burgos’s history. Gould’s family is expected to join the lawsuit soon, said their lawyer, Robert Allard.

    Last year, shortly before Gould testified in the criminal trial, U.S.T.A. Northern California unexpectedly nominated him for a national sportsmanship award with past winners that included the professional players Sam Querrey and Alison Riske. Gould was named one of two winners after the verdict. He even received an email on May 16 from Patrick J. Galbraith, president and board chairman of the U.S.T.A., that read, “Congrats Stevie!”

    The U.S.T.A. videotaped interviews with the Goulds and others as highlights for the award presentation. But only after the Goulds flew to New York for a ceremony during the United States Open did they realize how big and powerful the organization was.

    “I am literally being given an award by the U.S.T.A. in the middle of this room of 500 people in suits,” Gould said. “I had to shake hands with so many different people that did absolutely nothing throughout the entire time when I was being abused.”

    David W. Chen is an investigative reporter on the Sports Desk. He was previously an investigative reporter on the Metro desk, the City Hall bureau chief, and worked in Taiwan, Hong Kong and the San Francisco Bay Area before joining The Times in 1995. @davidwchen

    A version of this article appears in print on April 5, 2020, Section SP, Page 1 of the New York edition with the headline: What Happens When Protectors Turn a Blind Eye?. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe



    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/s...orts&smtyp=cur
    “No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up.” – Lily Tomlin.




  15. #4035

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    Many of us are refugees from the old ESPN board where things got toxic to put it mildly. The mods work hard to keep this a place for civil conversation regardless of the topic.

    There can never be a winner in this conversation. I hope people will agree to disagree.
    I don't know anything about the ESPN board and I'm sorry that this place has ended up having conversations which are causing you (and others) to have toxic flashbacks. I too would love to have a space where we could only talk about tennis. Unfortunately, for many people, life, which tennis is a part of, can be really toxic. I don't think there is anyone saying that our current leader isn't racist, misogynist, xenophobic or transphobic. There are multiple examples of each of these that are easily verifiable with a quick google search for those who aren't keeping track. So if you support this leader, you either share his views, or they don't matter enough to you to dissuade you from supporting him which, in the end, is the same thing. I totally agree with you that this isn't an argument that is going to be won. However for me, and many others here I think, it's important to call it what it is, and call people out for it, every time. Every. Stupid. Time. If we don't, then we are tacitly supporting it. So again, I'm super sorry that this can't be a space for pure tennis talk, but limiting it to that would be denying reality.

    Kevin
    Last edited by Pattyfan; 04-07-2020 at 09:46 AM.

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