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  1. #4681

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Do either tour have rules for behaviour outside of tournament grounds? Should they? The players are supposed to be independent contractors, and though I think the allegations against Zverev are probably true, does the ATP have the authority to suspend a player for personal behaviour?

  2. #4682

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan View Post
    Do either tour have rules for behaviour outside of tournament grounds? Should they? The players are supposed to be independent contractors, and though I think the allegations against Zverev are probably true, does the ATP have the authority to suspend a player for personal behaviour?
    Good question. I think the "independent contractor" part is what lets the ATP off the hook.

    Does anyone know if NFL, MLB or NBA players are considered contractors or are they employees of the various leagues?
    “No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up.” – Lily Tomlin.




  3. #4683

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    Good question. I think the "independent contractor" part is what lets the ATP off the hook.

    Does anyone know if NFL, MLB or NBA players are considered contractors or are they employees of the various leagues?
    Employees, hence the union, and guaranteed salaried contracts of the teams they play for - technically not the leagues.

  4. #4684

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan View Post
    Do either tour have rules for behaviour outside of tournament grounds? Should they? The players are supposed to be independent contractors, and though I think the allegations against Zverev are probably true, does the ATP have the authority to suspend a player for personal behaviour?
    Someone dug this up on Twitter. Hotels rented by the tournament count as "tournament grounds," and there's a rule against any sort of violence.

    I honestly think journalists may have missed the mark a little bit by focusing solely on specifically domestic violence. I'd like someone to follow up and ask about the rule against general violence, because it does exist.

  5. #4685

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    My understanding is that the woman involved here (I forgot her name) is not pressing charges. And my question was what Skating wrote above: does the ATP have rules regarding situations like this one?
    This may be legally tricky, no?

    Djokovic's position made me feel better about still rooting for Zverev yesterday.
    Face it. It's the apocalypse.

  6. #4686

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan View Post
    Do either tour have rules for behaviour outside of tournament grounds? Should they? The players are supposed to be independent contractors, and though I think the allegations against Zverev are probably true, does the ATP have the authority to suspend a player for personal behaviour?
    This could cover it but probably requires a formal charge from an appropriate government agency, not just an individual.

    ATP Rulebook, VIII. The Code. 8.05.A.2) on page 214

    c) A player, or related person, convicted of a violation of a criminal or civil law of
    any jurisdiction may be deemed by virtue of such conviction to have engaged
    in conduct contrary to the integrity of the Game of Tennis.

    d) A player, or related person, charged with a violation of a criminal or civil law
    of any jurisdiction may be deemed by virtue of such charge to have engaged
    in conduct contrary to the integrity of the Game of Tennis and the ATP Senior
    Vice President - Rules & Competition may provisionally suspend such player,
    or related person, from further participation in ATP tournaments pending a
    final determination of the criminal or civil proceeding.

    e) Violation of this section shall subject the player to a fine of up to $100,000
    and/or suspension from play in ATP Tour or ATP Challenger Tour tournaments
    for a period of up to three (3) years. Violation of this Section by a Related
    Person may result in a maximum penalty of permanent revocation of accreditation
    and denial of access to all ATP Tour and ATP Challenger Tour Tournaments.
    "The official and decisive text to the Rules of Tennis shall be for ever in the English
    language...." ITF Rules of Tennis 2019

  7. #4687

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie02123 View Post
    Someone dug this up on Twitter. Hotels rented by the tournament count as "tournament grounds," and there's a rule against any sort of violence.

    I honestly think journalists may have missed the mark a little bit by focusing solely on specifically domestic violence. I'd like someone to follow up and ask about the rule against general violence, because it does exist.
    If the hotel is considered "within the precincts of the tournament site" this section would apply:

    ATP Rulebook, VIII. The Code. 8.04.M.2) on page 204

    c) Physical Abuse
    i) Players shall not at any time physically abuse any official, opponent,
    spectator or other person within the precincts of the tournament site. For
    purposes of this rule, physical abuse is the unauthorized touching of an
    official, opponent, and spectator or other person.

    ii) Violation of this section shall subject a player to a fine up to $20,000 for
    each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match, the
    player shall be penalized in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule.
    In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success
    of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, the ATP Supervisor
    may refer the matter to the ATP SVP - Rules & Competition who shall
    conduct an investigation to determine whether the player Major Offense
    of Aggravated Behavior or Conduct Contrary to the Integrity of the Game
    has occurred. Prize money earned at that event shall be held by ATP until
    the ATP SVP - Rules & competition has concluded his investigation and
    made a determination.
    "The official and decisive text to the Rules of Tennis shall be for ever in the English
    language...." ITF Rules of Tennis 2019

  8. #4688
    Director of Nothing
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    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    The violence at the US Open happened in 2019 - hotel rooms were rented by the players, not ATP or USTA.

    There's a lot of language about conduct damaging to the reputation of the ATP in the rulebook, so, if they wanted to raise the issue, it could easily fall under that. But they don't want to.

    I don't have as much of an issue with Djokovic's statement, he essentially stated his opinion is biased and he expects an investigation (not sure whom he expects to conduct it)


  9. #4689

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    I didn't read the handbook rules posted, but I think the players are "members" of the ATP, which could be a very different dynamic than "independent contractor."
    Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.

  10. #4690
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    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    I don't expect much from the ATP. They are such a misogynistic group and they close ranks to protect themselves.

    Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

  11. #4691

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by MeganFernandez View Post
    I didn't read the handbook rules posted, but I think the players are "members" of the ATP, which could be a very different dynamic than "independent contractor."
    I'm not sure that the players are members of the tour, I think the tournaments are members of the tour, and the players have always been referred to as independent contractors. That is why the ATP Player Council exists is because it is the player body that deals with the ATP Tour.

  12. #4692

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan View Post
    I'm not sure that the players are members of the tour, I think the tournaments are members of the tour, and the players have always been referred to as independent contractors. That is why the ATP Player Council exists is because it is the player body that deals with the ATP Tour.
    An ATP staffer recently referred to players as “members” to me, so that’s why I said that. I know their status has always been compared to independent contractors, but I always thought that was mainly a way of saying they don’t have contracts with the league.
    Last edited by MeganFernandez; 11-21-2020 at 07:39 PM.

  13. #4693

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    carillo dog show.PNG

    (Apologies if this has already appeared in another thread.)

    The National Dog Show was mentioned several times during church this morning (sermon + social hour discussions about Thanksgiving traditions) so I took a look at the program afterward. Mary Carillo is in the program as a commentator.

    Link to show info:
    https://www.nbc.com/the-national-dog-show

  14. #4694

    Re: Tennis Random, Random 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by MeganFernandez View Post
    An ATP staffer recently referred to players as “members” to me, so that’s why I said that. I know their status has always been compared to independent contractors, but I always thought that was mainly a way of saying they don’t have contracts with the league.
    All employees and all independent contractors have contracts with the entities that use their products and services. The difference between an "independent contractor" and an "employee" is determined by legal statutes and precedents of various legal jurisdictions which are often ambiguous, or even contradictory, and sometimes change. There is a lot of litigation, legislation, IRS rules, OSHA regulations, even California ballot propositions, about this status determination.

    Players do have contracts with the ATP, but they are not currently considered employment contracts and players are not currently considered employees of the ATP. NFL players have contacts with and are currently considered employees of the legal entity that owns the team that employs them.
    Last edited by 3mlm; Yesterday at 08:26 PM.
    "The official and decisive text to the Rules of Tennis shall be for ever in the English
    language...." ITF Rules of Tennis 2019

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