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  1. #1591
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    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by MeganFernandez View Post
    What a waste of a fantastic tennis personality. I love Djokovic's spirit, humor, maturity...and he and Jelena seem to adore each other.

    The writer characterized Federer as "skulking bashfully" past Novak and Jelena hugging in the hall. It was on camera - and I wouldnt describe it that way at all. He didnt acknowledge them, but who knows why? I tell ya, as an editor, assumed characterizations and mischaracterizations irritate me more than botched facts. Many of latter are inconsequential.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    I saw the clip too and he passed them as if they weren't there. There was no bashful skulking. You can only get away with this sort of thing in what passes for journalism in tennis.
    No question his digs at Federer are inaccurate and disgraceful, and should have been left out of the article altogether. It hurts his point.

    However, speaking as a Djokovic fan, I will say I expected better from what I used to consider the most knowledgeable tennis crowd on the planet. You literally could turn your back to the tv and know who won every point (I did it several times). There were even moments when you could almost hear a pin drop after Novak won a point (for example, late in the second set tiebreak). No matter how much you love a tennis player, it is inexcusable to not recognize another player's great play and greatness. Novak was never the bad boy. He was never Connors or Nastase or McEnroe. Compared to them, he is an angel. His impersonations were never mean-spirited and were often insisted upon by the post-match interviewer. He had a few shenanigans and incidents of less than stellar sportsmanship that were a result of his youth. He grew out of it (unlike McEnroe, Connors, Nastase). His behavior has been exemplary the last five years. But, some just cannot let go. This is a great era for men's tennis. It would not be as great without him because two great players don't make a great era. You need more.

    Rant over.

  2. #1592

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchi101 View Post
    John Tomic is calling the TA childish and arrogant? Easy to see where his son got his brains from...
    And that they both sit on them...
    There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.”

    ― Frank Zappa





  3. #1593

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by shtexas View Post
    You literally could turn your back to the tv and know who won every point (I did it several times).
    This was surprisingly a 100% true as I was surfing something else on another tab most of the championship match yesterday while livestreaming was on another! I must admit I haven't been a big fan of Djokovic (nor of Federer) but I couldn't help but shake my head about the disparity of support between both champions.

  4. #1594

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by shtexas View Post
    No question his digs at Federer are inaccurate and disgraceful, and should have been left out of the article altogether. It hurts his point.

    However, speaking as a Djokovic fan, I will say I expected better from what I used to consider the most knowledgeable tennis crowd on the planet. You literally could turn your back to the tv and know who won every point (I did it several times). There were even moments when you could almost hear a pin drop after Novak won a point (for example, late in the second set tiebreak). No matter how much you love a tennis player, it is inexcusable to not recognize another player's great play and greatness. Novak was never the bad boy. He was never Connors or Nastase or McEnroe. Compared to them, he is an angel. His impersonations were never mean-spirited and were often insisted upon by the post-match interviewer. He had a few shenanigans and incidents of less than stellar sportsmanship that were a result of his youth. He grew out of it (unlike McEnroe, Connors, Nastase). His behavior has been exemplary the last five years. But, some just cannot let go. This is a great era for men's tennis. It would not be as great without him because two great players don't make a great era. You need more.

    Rant over.
    I also thought both Roger and Novak showed each other total respect and acknowledged the achievements of each other in their awards ceremony speeches. Roger completely acknowledged the Nole has been the best player over the last few years. Everyone at my house was rooting for Roger, but we cheered just as hard for an excellent point no matter who won the point. Federer will continue to be the sentimental favorite until his results no longer put him in the running.
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  5. #1595
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    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by atlpam View Post
    I also thought both Roger and Novak showed each other total respect and acknowledged the achievements of each other in their awards ceremony speeches. Roger completely acknowledged the Nole has been the best player over the last few years. Everyone at my house was rooting for Roger, but we cheered just as hard for an excellent point no matter who won the point. Federer will continue to be the sentimental favorite until his results no longer put him in the running.
    There may be varying degrees of excitement as to who won, depending who I am rooting for, but I am always amazed by great points and play. I may have been rooting for Novak in the French final, and was devastated he didn't get his career slam, but I was also exhilarated by Stan's play. The RG men's event was not a bust for me because Novak didn't win. Quite the contrary. I will fondly remember it because of the level of Stan's play.

  6. #1596
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    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by atlpam View Post
    I also thought both Roger and Novak showed each other total respect and acknowledged the achievements of each other in their awards ceremony speeches. Roger completely acknowledged the Nole has been the best player over the last few years. Everyone at my house was rooting for Roger, but we cheered just as hard for an excellent point no matter who won the point. Federer will continue to be the sentimental favorite until his results no longer put him in the running.
    I did chuckle to myself when Djokovic was talking about how much Federer had done for the sport, that he was basically pointing out Federer was old.

    I thought the tennis was really beautiful. This was probably the first time I was ever going to be pretty ok if Federer beat a player I liked, which allowed me to really enjoy the tennis.


  7. #1597

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Petra wants you to guess where she is. And it's not a tennis court.

    https://instagram.com/p/5Ffa7JQX9X/
    There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.”

    ― Frank Zappa





  8. #1598

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    The Public Editor's Journal
    Double Fault in Article on Serena Williams and Body Image?

    By MARGARET SULLIVAN
    July 13, 2015

    When The Times’s sports staff gave the green light to an article proposed by a frequent freelancer, Ben Rothenberg, intentions were good. Here was an opportunity to illuminate a pervasive problem in women’s sports, the old and troubling notions of what a female athlete should look like, and to do so through the views of the athletes themselves. Mr. Rothenberg even had the tennis superstar Serena Williams on the record with thoughtful quotes.

    Mr. Rothenberg and his editors (three of four were women) said they took special pains to make the story balanced and sensitive.

    But by Friday afternoon, many readers were aghast. They were calling the article (and even The Times itself) racist and sexist. They were deploring the article’s timing, which focused on body image just when Ms. Williams was triumphing at Wimbledon. The article, they said, harmed progress in bringing equality and recognition to women’s sports — something happening that very day with New York City’s first ticker-tape parade for a team of female athletes, the World Cup champion United States soccer team.

    One longtime subscriber, Lisa Leshne, wrote to me: “Why is this even a story? Why does the newspaper feel the need to talk about Serena’s body type? What’s with the obsession over ‘perceived ideal feminine body type?'” From her point of view, “She’s a champion, she’s strong and successful, that’s the story.”

    Others were tougher still. Claire Potter, in a post on outhistory.org, wrote: “I don’t know why I am surprised that The New York Times would publish a piece that supports female body hatred, that a male reporter would support such a narrow beauty standard for women, or that women’s tennis players would be proud of their endless willingness to be gender police for each other. But I am.”

    And on Twitter, Joshua DuBois wrote:

    @BenRothenberg reaction to serena piece not overblown. Premise & execution both classically racist & shot thru w/implicit bias. @Sulliview

    — Joshua DuBois (@joshuadubois) 12 Jul 15

    I talked Monday morning to Mr. Rothenberg, who said he was “disappointed and surprised” by the negative reaction.

    “I knew it was going to be a touchy subject,” he said, but he was taken aback nonetheless. In retrospect, he told me, he sees some of the ways that the article could have been approached differently.

    “I wanted it to be a conversation starter,” he said. “But I should have challenged the norms rather than just stated them as a given.” He also said that a late decision to rewrite the top of the piece, putting more attention on Serena Williams, had the unfortunate effect of creating a “Serena versus everybody else” split.

    The sports editor, Jason Stallman, told me that The Times intended to present “a nuanced look at this issue, which we appreciated is a sensitive one.” He praised Mr. Rothenberg’s work, especially for his access to the players and his chronicling of Serena Williams’s dominance of the sport.

    Well aware of the criticism, Mr. Stallman said he still found the topic worthwhile: “In covering sports, we can’t not write about women’s bodies.” And, he said, male athletes come in for scrutiny, too, citing a front-page article just last week on Mets pitcher Bartolo Colon, focused on his 285-pound body, up about 100 pounds from 1997 when he joined the major leagues.

    Mr. Stallman, like Mr. Rothenberg, acknowledged that some aspects of the article might have been handled differently. The timing, coming just before Ms. Williams’s Wimbledon win on Saturday, created a “buzzkill” when fans were becoming “more and more buoyant” about the likelihood of the American player’s triumph, he said.

    And a Twitter card seemed to conflate The Times’s article with a coach’s quote.

    Serena Williams has a muscular frame. Her rivals choose not to emulate her physique http://t.co/IecMzg4AwV http://t.co/gEGHd3NI3z

    — The New York Times (@nytimes) 10 Jul 15

    The role of the Twitter cards is to be provocative and to draw in readers but “maybe we didn’t need to be so blunt,” Mr. Stallman said.

    Mr. Stallman thinks readers may be directing their anger at the wrong source. In the criticism he’s seen, “there is a suggestion that it’s our role to fight this battle. But this wasn’t a column or an editorial.” Let the reader decide, he said, if the views expressed are outrageous.

    I see this article as a missed opportunity to really get under the surface of a pervasive and troubling issue in women’s sports and, particularly, women’s tennis.

    Mr. Rothenberg had enviable access to top players and the kernel of an important, provocative idea. But the piece was “just so uncritical,” said Pat Griffin, professor emerita at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, the author of “Strong Women, Deep Closets,” and a consultant on sports and discrimination.

    “Sacrificing your femininity is a really old narrative in women’s sports,” Ms. Griffin told me by phone. “There is a whole new narrative breaking through — that women athletes come in all sizes, shapes and forms. So presenting Serena as some kind of freak, or animal-athlete, was appalling.”

    The Times article, she said, “didn’t get at the sexism and racism” just under the surface, or take into account the not-so-distant history of a sport where, for example, a lesbian tennis star like Amélie Mauresmo was derisively referred to by an opponent as “half a man.”

    And, as an aside, the author J.K. Rowling had something to say on that subject, responding to a tweet critical of Ms. Williams.

    .@diegtristan8 “she is built like a man”. Yeah, my husband looks just like this in a dress. You’re an idiot. http://t.co/BCvT10MYkI

    — J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) 11 Jul 15

    Most of all, it’s unfortunate that this piece didn’t find a way to challenge the views expressed, instead of simply mirroring them.

    Including the perspectives of those who could have unpacked the underlying issues, while also considering the article’s timing and staying away from reductive social-media techniques – all of this could have made for a more productive conversation. And that conversation is still worth having.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/publ...age/?referrer=
    There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.”

    ― Frank Zappa





  9. #1599

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    I remember reading the article and thinking that it was rather glib, but just took it as a human interest piece, more than a deep-dive critique on women's bodies in sports. I guess that by having the benefit of reading Ben's posts here on TAT for many years before he became a professional writer, I knew that he wasn't intentionally trying to be sexist or racist. Without that knowledge, though, I can see why people have reacted to it so strongly.
    This is not the bouquet you toss

  10. #1600

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    It's strange that an anti-woman label is being applied to an article comprised mostly of quotes from women talking about their personal experience.

  11. #1601

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    I thought the article did a relatively good job of showing that even professional athletes wrestle with the body image issue. The most surprising quote to me was from Sharapova saying she doesn't even lift a 5 lb weight - no wonder she can't beat Serena! I use bigger weights than that twice a week and I'm just a middle-aged woman trying to stay toned and fight the effects of gravity
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  12. #1602
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    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by atlpam View Post
    The most surprising quote to me was from Sharapova saying she doesn't even lift a 5 lb weight - no wonder she can't beat Serena!
    Pam - I was struck by that comment too.

  13. #1603

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by atlpam View Post
    I thought the article did a relatively good job of showing that even professional athletes wrestle with the body image issue. The most surprising quote to me was from Sharapova saying she doesn't even lift a 5 lb weight - no wonder she can't beat Serena! I use bigger weights than that twice a week and I'm just a middle-aged woman trying to stay toned and fight the effects of gravity
    I wasn't sure she was being totally serious.

    Got people talking - lot to be said for that. It's all too easy to pick apart journalism.
    Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.

  14. #1604

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Several thoughts on this topic.

    Somewhere in England, Neil Harman is smiling.

    When I read it, my first reaction was that, "boy, this piece seems outdated". I remember the debate about whose arms were more cut, Serena's or Mauresmo's.

    Anyone who is familiar with salmon's posts on TAT probably could have predicted something like this was bound to happen. Heck, I think it will happen throughout his career. And I'm not saying that as a criticism. He is a provocateur.

    Also, why does the Times statement refer to him as a freelancer when most everywhere else he is represented as a writer for the NYT?
    Towel Avatar, do your thing!

  15. #1605

    Re: Tennis, Random Random

    Oh, and I definitely don't think he is sexist or racist. But a world class cage rattler, for sure. I just hope this doesn't take a too big a toll on him.
    Towel Avatar, do your thing!

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