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  1. #16

    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirkus View Post
    Actually, from what I've read, there's no proof that he was directly responsible for any attack on, or death of, American citizens. Even if there was, the guy was still an American Citizen, and more than likely protected by The Constitution. His right to due process was smashed all to hell.

    The previous administration told us that all prisoners being held at Guantanamo Bay were imminent threats to American. We eventually learned that that wasn't always the case. Just because the President says this guy was so evil, to kill him was the only option, doesn't make it so.

    I totally get the arguments. In fact, I probably agree with them. But when we start throwing out The Constitution and the rights of American citizens contained within it, I think we've embarked one hell of a slippery slope.

    What if he had been in Cleveland Ohio and the CIA had a bead on him? Would it have been OK to send in a sniper and shoot him in the head?
    You continue to be provocative, my friend. I can read your words here on their face and I can put them in the context of your support for the death penalty, even as we know that many states execute innocent people all the time. Since I believe death by government hand is cruel and unusual punishment, an eye for an eye, some might call it, which makes capital punishment, in my opinion anyway, unconstitutional, it's interesting that you invoke constitutional rights in this discussion.

    Provocative. Yeah.


  2. #17

    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchi101 View Post
    (This under the administration of a Noble Peace Prize winner. Odd. )
    Not odd at all considering that this particular Nobel Peace Prize winner accepted his prize by delivering an unabashedly pro-war speech.


  3. #18

    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Not that Kirkus needs any lawyers or defenders, but he recently posted his reversal of opinion regarding Capital Punishment.
    I recall Obama's Peace Prize award speech. But I hope that you get my point that the Prize if inconsequential. I truly find it odd, in the sense of "weird", not in any other logical-violating sense.
    Missing winter...

  4. #19

    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Craig Kirkus has changed his mind about capital punishment. It's in the death penalty thread.
    There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.

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  5. #20
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    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by craighickman View Post
    You continue to be provocative, my friend. I can read your words here on their face and I can put them in the context of your support for the death penalty, even as we know that many states execute innocent people all the time. Since I believe death by government hand is cruel and unusual punishment, an eye for an eye, some might call it, which makes capital punishment, in my opinion anyway, unconstitutional, it's interesting that you invoke constitutional rights in this discussion.

    Provocative. Yeah.
    I have changed my stance on capital punishment. This is true. Though not because I believe it's morally wrong, but rather, because it can't be implemented fairly and consistently.

    Putting that aside for the moment, however, it's not al-Awlaki's execution that concerns me. It's the fact that it was carried out without due process. Men on death-row have at least had the opportunity to avail themselves of the justice system. Trial - appeal - appeal - appeal, ad nauseum. al-Awlaki was blown to hell and gone without so much as a sniff of the justice system.

    Again, let me repeat, this was a bad guy. Probably a threat to the Unites States. I'm not losing any sleep over his execution.

    But did his actions constitute an imminent threat? I don't think so. Is there any proof, or even suggestion, that he was involved in any actual crime against America? If there is I haven't seen it reported on.
    Oh Grigor. You silly man.

  6. #21
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    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchi101 View Post
    I recall Obama's Peace Prize award speech. But I hope that you get my point that the Prize if inconsequential. I truly find it odd, in the sense of "weird", not in any other logical-violating sense.
    Agreed.

    ::

    Wanted to reiterate my point from earlier that I find it kind of strange why people think it's a big issue that the guy killed is an American citizen. Yes, the American constitution gives its citizens certain rights, but then, at least, the government has jurisdiction over its citizens. I find it much more troubling that the US military through its drone attacks kills hundreds of innocent people over whom the American government has absolutely zero jurisdiction.

  7. #22
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    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit View Post
    Agreed.

    ::

    Wanted to reiterate my point from earlier that I find it kind of strange why people think it's a big issue that the guy killed is an American citizen. Yes, the American constitution gives its citizens certain rights, but then, at least, the government has jurisdiction over its citizens. I find it much more troubling that the US military through its drone attacks kills hundreds of innocent people over whom the American government has absolutely zero jurisdiction.
    It's a big issue because The Constitution is the basis of the country. It's what defines us. An American citizen was executed by the American government without due process.

    I certainly don't disagree with your view on foreign citizens being killed by the US military. I'll bet we could fill dozens of pages with that discussion. But again, for me at least, the death isn't the issue. The blatant disregard of the 5th amendment is the issue.
    Oh Grigor. You silly man.

  8. #23

    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit View Post
    Agreed.

    ::

    Wanted to reiterate my point from earlier that I find it kind of strange why people think it's a big issue that the guy killed is an American citizen. Yes, the American constitution gives its citizens certain rights, but then, at least, the government has jurisdiction over its citizens. I find it much more troubling that the US military through its drone attacks kills hundreds of innocent people over whom the American government has absolutely zero jurisdiction.
    Hear, hear.
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  9. #24

    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirkus View Post
    I have changed my stance on capital punishment. This is true. Though not because I believe it's morally wrong, but rather, because it can't be implemented fairly and consistently.

    Putting that aside for the moment, however, it's not al-Awlaki's execution that concerns me. It's the fact that it was carried out without due process. Men on death-row have at least had the opportunity to avail themselves of the justice system. Trial - appeal - appeal - appeal, ad nauseum. al-Awlaki was blown to hell and gone without so much as a sniff of the justice system.

    Again, let me repeat, this was a bad guy. Probably a threat to the Unites States. I'm not losing any sleep over his execution.

    But did his actions constitute an imminent threat? I don't think so. Is there any proof, or even suggestion, that he was involved in any actual crime against America? If there is I haven't seen it reported on.
    I haven't been in the capital punishment thread for months so I missed reading about your change of mind. Sorry. I ought to have asked you.

    Still, you're provocative. Because I find myself agreeing with your line of questioning on this particular issue.


  10. #25

    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    I'm trying to work up some kind of emotion for the argument that as an American citizen this guy should've been arrested and brought "home" for trial.

    It's not that I don't understand the point of view - as an American citizen he is entitled to the rights any American is guaranteed under the Constitution - it's that he seems to have actually encouraged acts of violence against his country while keeping his citizenship. The only reason he would've done that, in my very humble opinion - is that he was banking on being captured alive and brought back to the States. In other words he didn't think he'd be blown to smithereens because of our belief that a citizen is a citizen no matter where he/she is in the world and that a show trial would be held somewhere on US soil which would give him a podium from which to spew his venom. Based on the reactions to the Mosque in downtown Manhattan the battle over where to hold the trial would've been a propaganda bonanza for his organization.

    It's no surprise to me that the right wing is pushing the "he was an American" thing since it's another way to smear the President. I'm just surprised that Rachel Maddow has come out the way she has.

    Don't get me wrong I understand the argument. I just think the facts need to be looked at from the other side.
    And then there's this.

    Which is exactly why I come here for the news and avoid the TV at almost all costs.


  11. #26
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    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    I'm trying to work up some kind of emotion for the argument that as an American citizen this guy should've been arrested and brought "home" for trial.

    It's not that I don't understand the point of view - as an American citizen he is entitled to the rights any American is guaranteed under the Constitution - it's that he seems to have actually encouraged acts of violence against his country while keeping his citizenship. The only reason he would've done that, in my very humble opinion - is that he was banking on being captured alive and brought back to the States. In other words he didn't think he'd be blown to smithereens because of our belief that a citizen is a citizen no matter where he/she is in the world and that a show trial would be held somewhere on US soil which would give him a podium from which to spew his venom. Based on the reactions to the Mosque in downtown Manhattan the battle over where to hold the trial would've been a propaganda bonanza for his organization.

    It's no surprise to me that the right wing is pushing the "he was an American" thing since it's another way to smear the President. I'm just surprised that Rachel Maddow has come out the way she has.

    Don't get me wrong I understand the argument. I just think the facts need to be looked at from the other side.
    I think that is spot on.
    Oh Grigor. You silly man.

  12. #27
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    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles View Post
    The examples you cite took place on American soil where our own protective forces have greater control in apprehending criminals alive.

    This happened on foreign soil, dare I say on enemy soil.

    I suspect the President, Justice Department, CIA and the Pentagon would probably argue that it wasn't prudent to capture this guy alive without placing additional US lives at risk.

    It certainly makes for a compelling argument.
    I doubt there was any prudent means to take him in person, on the ground. So I'm betting this was the rationale.

  13. #28
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    Re: Anwar al-Awlaki killed by the CIA

    John Walker Lindh, known in the press as "The American Taliban" was captured during a raid in Afghanistan, returned to America and tried in an American courtroom. His conviction, of course, was subject to all sorts of hindsight thinking, but I have no opinion on that. I'm just making the point that the military had their hands on him and they brought him home for trial.

    Anwar al-Awlaki on the other hand has managed to stay hidden from military and law enforcement. He has publicly allied himself with a terrorist organization through videos. He has apparently encouraged terrorist acts through communication with disaffected American citizens in the U.S. He travels in caravans with other terrorists, including a bomb-maker. If they had been able to swoop down on the caravan and capture al-Awlaki, I would certainly have expected him to be returned for trial. That wasn't the situation.

    Even if you're an American, if you live with terrorists overseas, plan with terrorists and travel with terrorists, you're subject to the possibility of dying with terrorists. I am one of the least blood-thirsty people on this planet. But I have absolutely to problem with what happened here.

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