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  1. #811

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    I've been a skeptic of near future fully automated driving for some time. There are lots of reasons, some technological and financial but mostly of human nature. Good article detailing some.

    Robots on the road - how close is our driverless future?

    It was on the motorway near Phoenix, Arizona, that I realised fully driverless cars might be quite a distant dream. And that was because our Google Waymo robo-taxi seemed incapable of leaving that motorway.
    We were in Arizona to record a radio documentary for the BBC World Service about the progress towards creating autonomous vehicles that would make our roads safer and replace human drivers with robots.
    Google leads this race at the moment and for the past six months has been offering a robo-taxi service, Waymo One, to a select few early adopters in and around the Phoenix suburb of Chandler.
    Our first ride with Waymo took us through the quiet suburban streets, where traffic is sparse and drivers well mannered.
    Here, the minivan, fitted out with a battery of sensors and high-definition cameras, performed very impressively, handling slightly tricky left turns, spotting other road users and slowing down as it passed a school.
    While a Google engineer sat behind the wheel, she never intervened and soon we relaxed and forgot that we were effectively being driven by a robot.
    Then, we hitched a ride with Shawn Metz, one of a few hundred locals selected as customers of Waymo One.
    He told us he and his wife used the service for their weekly shop, nights out and in places with limited parking.
    "We're hoping to go from a two-vehicle to a one-vehicle household eventually and optimistic this technology might get us there," he said.
    But as we headed along the motorway on the 20-minute ride to his office, things began to go wrong.
    As we approached our exit, there was a solid line of traffic to our right.
    An assertive human driver would probably have squeezed over and made it to the exit lane - but the robot, which cannot exceed the speed limit, was more cautious.

    The car missed that exit and the next one before finally leaving the motorway.
    And when we were back on the suburban streets, it appeared to freeze at a junction where it needed to turn left across traffic - after a while, the engineer behind the wheel had to take over and complete the turn.
    Mr Metz told us that in his experience this was a very rare occurrence.
    Slow progress
    Nevertheless, it served as an illustration that the Waymo autonomous driving technology, widely thought to be ahead of its competitors, still needs to be refined.
    It is understandable, however, that the system is programmed to be ultra-cautious.
    After all, just a few miles away, another self-driving car killed a pedestrian in an accident in March 2018, which shook confidence in autonomous technology.
    The car belonged to Uber, one of Waymo's big rivals, and it ploughed into a woman pushing a bike across a road near Arizona State University.
    An investigation found that the safety driver had been watching a video on her phone at the moment of impact.
    The ideal road and weather conditions coupled with welcoming local officials have made the Phoenix area one of the world's leading locations for testing autonomous vehicles.

    At first, there was little opposition but local journalist Ryan Randazzo said the accident had shaken public confidence.
    "To have an accident that was the exact kind of thing that these cars were supposed to be able to prevent really rattled people's nerves," he said.
    "And I certainly hear a lot more feedback from people in this area who are not comfortable with these tests going on in their community."
    Clem Wright, product manager at Waymo, admitted the Uber accident had brought home how high the stakes were in the race to build self-driving cars but stressed his company was being meticulous in its testing.
    "We have 10 million miles on public roads, gathering these different scenarios," he said.
    "And then we also use simulation where we say, 'Hey, here's a tricky situation. What if this car is coming 10 miles per hour faster? What if a bicycle is swerving into us?'"

    Pedestrian power

    Nevertheless, with huge sums being invested by both technology companies such as Google and traditional car-makers, there are some brave predictions of when the robots will be able to take to the road without a human safety driver.
    Ken Washington, Ford's chief technology officer, told us his company's extensive autonomous driving programme would deliver results in a couple of years.
    He said: "Between now and 2021, we're going to apply that learning in a way that allows us to eventually take that safety driver out of the system on selected routes."
    In the UK, the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, has also promised that "genuine driverless cars" will be on the roads by 2021.
    Waymo has already received permission to operate without a driver in a limited area near Google's Mountain View headquarters, in California.
    But any experiments with fully autonomous vehicles are likely to take place under strictly controlled conditions for years to come.

    Myra Blanco, a researcher at the Virginia Tech Transport Institute, in the US, said we would probably see driverless cars in geo-fenced areas in two to five years but she was far more sceptical about full automation.
    "That means going from the mountains, rural roadways, all the way to the city - that is going to take a little bit longer, probably potentially a couple of decades away," she said.
    Even then, there will be real problems in mixing the robots, the human drivers and pedestrians on the same streets.
    Far from the orderly roads of Arizona, I stood with the transport writer Christian Wolmar at the hectic crossroads outside Holborn Tube station, in central London.
    He pointed out that pedestrians would have no hesitation in stepping out in front of driverless cars, knowing they were programmed to stop, and the result would be gridlock.
    "Once you set the rule that driverless cars have to effectively kowtow to any pedestrian in the street, and pedestrians begin to learn that, then the whole balance of power in our streets will change," he said.
    "The concept just doesn't survive the idea of mixed use streets."


    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48334449

    It's not the too timid driving on high that will kill the concept. That could be fixed with more testing and adjusting the algorithm. It's issues like the one I have bolded. Another one not mentioned here: those things are planned to be used as taxis. How does one ensure they stay acceptably clean with no driver inside and who's going to clean them when they don't?
    Roger forever

  2. #812

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    I have said it before. They really do not want driver-less cars. They want driver-less TRUCKS. They want to have slow moving trucks (40 MPH) driving non-stop to the next destination. In the USA, where transport is so important to companies like UPS/FEDEX/DHL, they can save a fortune if they have automated trucks.
    Your points are spot on, Suliso. But Fedex is not in the business of taxis. If they get rid of their fleet of drivers, the savings would be huge. And they will not pass those along to the costumers.
    Starry starry night

  3. #813

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchi101 View Post
    But Fedex is not in the business of taxis. If they get rid of their fleet of drivers, the savings would be huge. And they will not pass those along to the costumers.
    Certainly, but how do they achieve that? Last time I checked Fedex still delivers on normal streets in mixed traffic. If one could somehow drive from a secured base straight to highway and then off to another secured base then it might work, but that can't be a great percentage of their driving (right?). For long range they have planes too.

    Although about those savings... What happens if one of those trucks breaks down 150 miles from home or gets in an accident of some kind? Who calls the police and insurance? Who goes to the site and secures cargo? It's not that easy...
    Roger forever

  4. #814

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    They probably don't achieve it, which is why FedEx, UPS and Amazon are all actively testing drone and/or robot delivery systems as an alternative. They will figure out a way to cut down that driver fleet one way or another.

  5. #815

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    In Baltimore and Beyond, a Stolen N.S.A. Tool Wreaks Havoc

    By Nicole Perlroth and Scott Shane
    May 25, 2019

    For nearly three weeks, Baltimore has struggled with a cyberattack by digital extortionists that has frozen thousands of computers, shut down email and disrupted real estate sales, water bills, health alerts and many other services.

    But here is what frustrated city employees and residents do not know: A key component of the malware that cybercriminals used in the attack was developed at taxpayer expense a short drive down the Baltimore-Washington Parkway at the National Security Agency, according to security experts briefed on the case.

    Since 2017, when the N.S.A. lost control of the tool, EternalBlue, it has been picked up by state hackers in North Korea, Russia and, more recently, China, to cut a path of destruction around the world, leaving billions of dollars in damage. But over the past year, the cyberweapon has boomeranged back and is now showing up in the N.S.A.’s own backyard.

    It is not just in Baltimore. Security experts say EternalBlue attacks have reached a high, and cybercriminals are zeroing in on vulnerable American towns and cities, from Pennsylvania to Texas, paralyzing local governments and driving up costs.

    The N.S.A. connection to the attacks on American cities has not been previously reported, in part because the agency has refused to discuss or even acknowledge the loss of its cyberweapon, dumped online in April 2017 by a still-unidentified group calling itself the Shadow Brokers. Years later, the agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation still do not know whether the Shadow Brokers are foreign spies or disgruntled insiders.

    Thomas Rid, a cybersecurity expert at Johns Hopkins University, called the Shadow Brokers episode “the most destructive and costly N.S.A. breach in history,” more damaging than the better-known leak in 2013 from Edward Snowden, the former N.S.A. contractor.

    “The government has refused to take responsibility, or even to answer the most basic questions,” Mr. Rid said. “Congressional oversight appears to be failing. The American people deserve an answer.”


    The N.S.A. and F.B.I. declined to comment.

    Since that leak, foreign intelligence agencies and rogue actors have used EternalBlue to spread malware that has paralyzed hospitals, airports, rail and shipping operators, A.T.M.s and factories that produce critical vaccines. Now the tool is hitting the United States where it is most vulnerable, in local governments with aging digital infrastructure and fewer resources to defend themselves.


    On May 7, city workers in Baltimore had their computers frozen by hackers. Officials have refused to pay the $100,000 ransom.Credit

    Before it leaked, EternalBlue was one of the most useful exploits in the N.S.A.’s cyberarsenal. According to three former N.S.A. operators who spoke on the condition of anonymity, analysts spent almost a year finding a flaw in Microsoft’s software and writing the code to target it. Initially, they referred to it as EternalBluescreen because it often crashed computers — a risk that could tip off their targets. But it went on to become a reliable tool used in countless intelligence-gathering and counterterrorism missions.

    EternalBlue was so valuable, former N.S.A. employees said, that the agency never seriously considered alerting Microsoft about the vulnerabilities, and held on to it for more than five years before the breach forced its hand.


    The Baltimore attack, on May 7, was a classic ransomware assault. City workers’ screens suddenly locked, and a message in flawed English demanded about $100,000 in Bitcoin to free their files: “We’ve watching you for days,” said the message, obtained by The Baltimore Sun. “We won’t talk more, all we know is MONEY! Hurry up!”

    Today, Baltimore remains handicapped as city officials refuse to pay, though workarounds have restored some services. Without EternalBlue, the damage would not have been so vast, experts said. The tool exploits a vulnerability in unpatched software that allows hackers to spread their malware faster and farther than they otherwise could.

    North Korea was the first nation to co-opt the tool, for an attack in 2017 — called WannaCry — that paralyzed the British health care system, German railroads and some 200,000 organizations around the world. Next was Russia, which used the weapon in an attack — called NotPetya — that was aimed at Ukraine but spread across major companies doing business in the country. The assault cost FedEx more than $400 million and Merck, the pharmaceutical giant, $670 million.

    The damage didn’t stop there. In the past year, the same Russian hackers who targeted the 2016 American presidential election used EternalBlue to compromise hotel Wi-Fi networks. Iranian hackers have used it to spread ransomware and hack airlines in the Middle East, according to researchers at the security firms Symantec and FireEye.


    “It’s incredible that a tool which was used by intelligence services is now publicly available and so widely used,” said Vikram Thakur, Symantec’s director of security response.

    One month before the Shadow Brokers began dumping the agency’s tools online in 2017, the N.S.A. — aware of the breach — reached out to Microsoft and other tech companies to inform them of their software flaws. Microsoft released a patch, but hundreds of thousands of computers worldwide remain unprotected.

    Hackers seem to have found a sweet spot in Baltimore, Allentown, Pa., San Antonio and other local, American governments, where public employees oversee tangled networks that often use out-of-date software. Last July, the Department of Homeland Security issued a dire warning that state and local governments were getting hit by particularly destructive malware that now, security researchers say, has started relying on EternalBlue to spread.

    Microsoft, which tracks the use of EternalBlue, would not name the cities and towns affected, citing customer privacy. But other experts briefed on the attacks in Baltimore, Allentown and San Antonio confirmed the hackers used EternalBlue. Security responders said they were seeing EternalBlue pop up in attacks almost every day.

    Amit Serper, head of security research at Cybereason, said his firm had responded to EternalBlue attacks at three different American universities, and found vulnerable servers in major cities like Dallas, Los Angeles and New York.

    The costs can be hard for local governments to bear. The Allentown attack, in February last year, disrupted city services for weeks and cost about $1 million to remedy — plus another $420,000 a year for new defenses, said Matthew Leibert, the city’s chief information officer.

    He described the package of dangerous computer code that hit Allentown as “commodity malware,” sold on the dark web and used by criminals who don’t have specific targets in mind. “There are warehouses of kids overseas firing off phishing emails,” Mr. Leibert said, like thugs shooting military-grade weapons at random targets.

    The malware that hit San Antonio last September infected a computer inside Bexar County sheriff’s office and tried to spread across the network using EternalBlue, according to two people briefed on the attack.

    This past week, researchers at the security firm Palo Alto Networks discovered that a Chinese state group, Emissary Panda, had hacked into Middle Eastern governments using EternalBlue.

    “You can’t hope that once the initial wave of attacks is over, it will go away,” said Jen Miller-Osborn, a deputy director of threat intelligence at Palo Alto Networks. “We expect EternalBlue will be used almost forever, because if attackers find a system that isn’t patched, it is so useful.”

    Until a decade or so ago, the most powerful cyberweapons belonged almost exclusively to intelligence agencies — N.S.A. officials used the term “NOBUS,” for “nobody but us,” for vulnerabilities only the agency had the sophistication to exploit. But that advantage has hugely eroded, not only because of the leaks, but because anyone can grab a cyberweapon’s code once it’s used in the wild.

    Some F.B.I. and Homeland Security officials, speaking privately, said more accountability at the N.S.A. was needed. A former F.B.I. official likened the situation to a government failing to lock up a warehouse of automatic weapons.

    In an interview in March, Adm. Michael S. Rogers, who was director of the N.S.A. during the Shadow Brokers leak, suggested in unusually candid remarks that the agency should not be blamed for the long trail of damage.

    “If Toyota makes pickup trucks and someone takes a pickup truck, welds an explosive device onto the front, crashes it through a perimeter and into a crowd of people, is that Toyota’s responsibility?” he asked. “The N.S.A. wrote an exploit that was never designed to do what was done.”

    At Microsoft’s headquarters in Redmond, Wash., where thousands of security engineers have found themselves on the front lines of these attacks, executives reject that analogy.

    “I disagree completely,” said Tom Burt, the corporate vice president of consumer trust, insisting that cyberweapons could not be compared to pickup trucks. “These exploits are developed and kept secret by governments for the express purpose of using them as weapons or espionage tools. They’re inherently dangerous. When someone takes that, they’re not strapping a bomb to it. It’s already a bomb.”

    Brad Smith, Microsoft’s president, has called for a “Digital Geneva Convention” to govern cyberspace, including a pledge by governments to report vulnerabilities to vendors, rather than keeping them secret to exploit for espionage or attacks.

    Last year, Microsoft, along with Google and Facebook, joined 50 countries in signing on to a similar call by French President Emmanuel Macron — the Paris Call for Trust and Security in Cyberspace — to end “malicious cyber activities in peacetime.”

    Notably absent from the signatories were the world’s most aggressive cyberactors: China, Iran, Israel, North Korea, Russia — and the United States.


    A version of this article appears in print on May 26, 2019 of the New York edition with the headline: Cities Hijacked By Tool Stolen From the N.S.A..


    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/25/u...nl=top-stories
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  6. #816

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Zuckerberg and Sandberg ignore Canadian subpoena, face possible contempt vote
    Donie O'SullivanCNN Digital Rebranding 2015 Paula Newton Photo: Jeremy Freeman
    By Donie O'Sullivan and Paula Newton, CNN Business

    Ottawa and New York (CNN Business)Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg did not attend a hearing in Ottawa on Tuesday, despite receiving summonses from the Canadian parliament.

    The decision could result in the executives being held in contempt of parliament, the senior Canadian politician who sent the summons told CNN.

    Facebook instead sent two representatives from its public policy team to the hearing, which was tied to a gathering of an international committee examining Silicon Valley's impact on privacy and democracy.
    Multiple lawmakers pointed out that Zuckerberg's failure to show up contradicted what he wrote in an op-ed in March when he wrote he was "looking forward to discussing them [online issues] with lawmakers around the world."

    In a contentious exchange, British MP Damian Collins asked why Facebook had not removed a manipulated video of U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi that went viral last week. Collins suggested that Facebook's refusal to remove the video was "irresponsible" and gave a "green light" to anyone to make false videos about politicians. YouTube removed the video.

    Neil Potts, Facebook's director of public policy, said the company had downranked the video, meaning it will show up in fewer people's News Feeds.

    Both Zuckerberg and Sandberg received formal requests from the Canadian Parliament earlier this month. Zuckerberg and Sandberg have testified before the United States Congress on the subject.
    On Monday night, Bob Zimmer MP, the chair of the committee, said that Facebook had not told the committee whether its two most senior executives would be attending. He said committee members learned on CNN that Zuckerberg and Sandberg would not testify.

    A Facebook spokesperson disputed that on Tuesday morning, saying the company had told the committee it would be sending Kevin Chan, its head of public policy for Facebook Canada, and Neil Potts, its director of public policy, to the meeting. The spokesperson added the company had been in ongoing communication with the committee.

    Google and Twitter also sent representatives to address the committee, but the committee doesn't appear to have sent summons to those companies' top executives.

    Lawmakers from at least ten countries, including the United Kingdom and Australia, were expected to attend the meeting, which is the second of its kind. The first meeting of the committee last year in London resulted in the release of secret internal Facebook documents.

    "Collectively we represent about 450 million people, it's a bigger population group than the US," Zimmer, whose committee is hosting the international meeting, told CNN Monday.

    Zimmer sent both Facebook executives summonses earlier this month. He said the company had submitted alternate names of people to attend in their place, but that he wants to hear directly from the social network's top two executives. Their presence is important, he said, because, "Knowing the structure of Facebook and how it is micro-managed right from the top, any change on the platform is done through Mr. Zuckerberg or through Ms. Sandberg."

    "It's not that hard to jump on a plane and make some time to hear from legislators and answer their questions," he told CNN.

    The decision to hold them in contempt, Zimmer said, would be voted on by the whole of Parliament.
    "Nobody is going to come with some handcuffs and arrest them, but to be held in contempt by an entire country would not serve any platform well," he added.

    Facebook (FB) spokesperson said in a statement earlier Monday: "Ultimately this is a decision for Parliament — we're not in a position to speculate. We share the Committee's desire to keep people safe and to hold companies like ours accountable. Right now we're focused on engaging in meaningful dialogue with the committee and look forward to answering their questions."

    "We look forward to answering their questions and remain committed to working with world leaders, governments, and industry experts to address these complex issues," the spokesperson said.


    https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/27/tech/...ada/index.html
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  7. #817

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Devil's advocate:
    Why should you submit to a subpoena from a country of which you are not a citizen nor a resident alien? Because if that is the precedent, then Iran can subpoena you, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc.
    I understand that FB is a special case. It is basically a company without borders, like a lot of them now (Google, MS, etc). But by that same logic, Russia can issue Kirkus an arrest warrant for my comments here about Putin.
    There is a reason why you are a citizen/resident of a country. Unless you commit a crime within the borders of a separate country, you do not submit to its laws.
    And you know my opinion about FB.
    Starry starry night

  8. #818

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchi101 View Post
    Devil's advocate:
    Why should you submit to a subpoena from a country of which you are not a citizen nor a resident alien? Because if that is the precedent, then Iran can subpoena you, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc.
    I understand that FB is a special case. It is basically a company without borders, like a lot of them now (Google, MS, etc). But by that same logic, Russia can issue Kirkus an arrest warrant for my comments here about Putin.
    There is a reason why you are a citizen/resident of a country. Unless you commit a crime within the borders of a separate country, you do not submit to its laws.
    And you know my opinion about FB.
    This was my exact thought when reading/posting the story for the reasons you give.

    With global media companies now a norm international business law may have to be amended to address situations like this.
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  9. #819
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    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    This was my exact thought when reading/posting the story for the reasons you give.

    With global media companies now a norm international business law may have to be amended to address situations like this.
    Yeah, the company itself did respond to the subpoena (a legal sub-entity of FB surely exists in Canada, and is bound by its laws), so I'm not sure why global leadership would be subject to a subpoena if their jurisdiction ends at the local entity. If they want impact, why declare Sandberg or Zuckerberg (who suffer few consequences) in contempt rather than the local leadership, which would actually hurt the company.


  10. #820

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Zuckerberg can in principle ignore Canadians, but it's not like Canada is completely powerless here. They could forbid his entry in Canada, could also assess large fines to the local branch. In extreme case could even kick them out of the country entirely. Small country, but not that small...
    Roger forever

  11. #821

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Sure, and that is all legal and should be so. And if Canada would want to block FB within is borders, fine too.
    But as a natural person, Zuckerberg should not (and I would believe does not) answer to a subpoena from the Canadian government.
    Starry starry night

  12. #822

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Yes, but it might be in his interests to show up voluntarily.
    Roger forever

  13. #823

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Seems like a good move not to show up. What is buried in that article is this isn't about Facebook alone, but also Google and Twitter. Why weren't their senior executives sent summons? They seem to be targeting Facebook because of past problems. Problems that regularly hit Google as well I might add but somehow doesn't the CEO and COO nearly the same scrutiny.

    Canada appears to be overstepping. It's also rather bizarre to be acting like they are running afoul of the Canadian parliament while speaking as an international committee representing 450 million.
    Last edited by JazzNU; 05-29-2019 at 04:38 PM.

  14. #824

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    As I heard news of the helicopter crash today in Midtown Manhattan, I was reminded of this story. Sure to increase helicopter traffic I'd assume, so even more concerning to hear about the crash.


    The Uber for helicopters is now Uber

    By Jon Porter


    Starting July 9th, Uber will offer helicopter rides between JFK airport and Lower Manhattan that can be booked on demand through its app. Uber Copter, The New York Times reports, will offer eight minute flights between the city and its major airport, with prices typically costing between $200 and $225 per person. Flights can be booked up to five days in advance.

    Uber Copter’s launch comes almost three years after Uber launched its flying car project called Uber Elevate, which was an ambitious plan to offer flights using a network of lightweight, electric aircraft. Since then the company has continued to offer one-off marketing stunts where it gives people helicopter tours of big events like CES, but nothing that will actually get you from point A to point B.

    Including the time it takes an Uber car to transport customers to the helipad in Manhattan, Uber hopes that Uber Copter will bring total transport times between NYC and JFK down to as little as half an hour. That compares with the one hour it typically takes the drive the route, which can take up to two hours or longer in the city’s bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic. The Long Island Railroad, meanwhile, typically takes between 50 and 75 minutes to make the journey.

    Not just anyone will be able to order an Uber Copter. You’ll need to be a Platinum or Diamond member of Uber Rewards, the airlines-style rewards program the company launched last year. You’ll also have to be wary of the amount of luggage you’re carrying. There’ll be space for five riders in every helicopter ride, but passengers will be limited to just two items of luggage; a small personal bag and a carry-on bag that can’t weigh more than 40 pounds.

    One of Uber’s key competitors for its new service is Blade, a service unrelated to Uber which nevertheless bills itself as an “Uber for helicopters.” Blade offers a similar route to Uber Copter, with prices starting at just $195, but recently made headlines after one of its helicopters crashed in the Hudson River. No passengers were on board at the time, and the pilot was unharmed.


    https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/6/18...ing-taxi-price

  15. #825

    Re: Techno-babble Random Random

    Ryan Mac
    ‏Verified account
    @RMac18
    I got some questions about this story on "tech titans" in Italy, and uhhh I think this photo is photoshopped?

    https://www.gq.com/story/brunello-cu...solomeo-summit



    Turns out he was right.

    Someone smarter than me (@z3dster) ran the original photo from Cucinelli's website through an exif analysis.

    This isn't definitive, but the metadata shows the photo was run through Photoshop before being posted. Let's gooooooo.



    LMAO THEY PHOTOSHOPPED THE WOMEN IN.

    (credit to @benjymous for the incredible find via reverse image search and LinkedIn)



    There's also some funny stuff with the men's legs too.
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




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