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  1. #1366

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Go tell that to an Italian. They are very proud of their heritage. In Venezuela, where there is a very large Italian colony (they contributed tremendously to the growth of the 60's-70's), the Italian kids ALL learned to speak fluent Italian from their families as they grew up. Which came in really handy when they started to migrate BACK to Italy during this dictatorship. They could reclaim passports and be fluent in the language.
    As far as Italian are concerned, their DNA is made of pasta, basil and pepperoncino. Not chocolate and cheese
    Missing winter...

  2. #1367
    Everyday Warrior MJ2004's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Reminds me of this clip:

  3. #1368

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Calder Robinson
    ‏@CalderRobinson

    The black plague disappeared without a vaccine, just saying...
    #antivax

    Dana Schwartz
    ‏Verified account
    @DanaSchwartzzz

    More Dana Schwartz Retweeted Calder Robinson
    It..... killed 1/3 of Europe.

    Are anti-vaxxers really going with “actually, the Black Plague wasn’t so bad”

    Anti-vaxxers don’t care about facts but:
    -the plague was bacterial so obviously it wouldn’t have a vaccine
    -it’s not gone, people still get it, but at least we have treatment now

    ok sorry sorry there are vaccinates for bacteria! science is great!
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  4. #1369

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Karen Uhlenbeck Is First Woman to Win Abel Prize for Mathematics

    Only like 70 years too late (Emmy Noether) but very good news still.
    Missing winter...

  5. #1370

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    I love your comment, Ti: "Are anti-vaxxers really going with 'actually, the Black Plague wasn't so bad'?"

    There are historians who think that the death toll could have been as high as 60% of Europe's population, but even the very lowest estimates are 30%. Obviously, the comment above that we have antibiotics for it now is spot-on. But, while very unlikely, it is by no means inconceivable that an untreatable virus could rampage the population in modern times. And think about it....if we even use the low end, 30%, that would mean over 100,000,000 deaths in the US alone.

    In Europe, the deaths from by far the worst occurrence of the plague all occurred between 1347-1351, sort of peaking in the middle of that time. Some countries got it later in that 4-year period, so the deaths were spread out. It took Europe's population 200 years to recover to the 1347 level.

    Anyway, imagine the impact of 30% of this country dying within 4-years of a communicable disease. In 14th century Europe, there were, quite literally, not enough people around to bury the dead in some areas. And people were afraid to handle the dead for obvious reasons. And that is only one small impact. The disease altered the history of Europe in many ways....something we studied quite extensively when I took Spanish Culture about 3 years ago.

    For the anti-vaxxers to even go there is an amazing lack of perspective.

    GH

  6. #1371

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennHarman View Post
    I love your comment, Ti: "Are anti-vaxxers really going with 'actually, the Black Plague wasn't so bad'?"

    There are historians who think that the death toll could have been as high as 60% of Europe's population, but even the very lowest estimates are 30%. Obviously, the comment above that we have antibiotics for it now is spot-on. But, while very unlikely, it is by no means inconceivable that an untreatable virus could rampage the population in modern times. And think about it....if we even use the low end, 30%, that would mean over 100,000,000 deaths in the US alone.

    In Europe, the deaths from by far the worst occurrence of the plague all occurred between 1347-1351, sort of peaking in the middle of that time. Some countries got it later in that 4-year period, so the deaths were spread out. It took Europe's population 200 years to recover to the 1347 level.

    Anyway, imagine the impact of 30% of this country dying within 4-years of a communicable disease. In 14th century Europe, there were, quite literally, not enough people around to bury the dead in some areas. And people were afraid to handle the dead for obvious reasons. And that is only one small impact. The disease altered the history of Europe in many ways....something we studied quite extensively when I took Spanish Culture about 3 years ago.

    For the anti-vaxxers to even go there is an amazing lack of perspective education.

    GH
    Fixed that for you.

    That quote wasn't mine btw. It was by the person whose tweet started the thread.
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  7. #1372

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Erin Biba
    @erinbiba
    JUST GET VACCINATED FOR F**K SAKE I CANNOT "On Tuesday, Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin said that he exposed his nine unvaccinated children to chicken pox to help them become immune to the disease, The Daily Beast reported."

    IF ONLY MODERN MEDICINE HAS COME UP WITH A TESTED SAFE AND PROVEN WAY TO CREATE IMMUNITY

    Parents are hosting chicken pox parties so their kids can 'get it over with,' but a pediatrician says the practice is a gamble
    Julia Naftulin

    On Tuesday, Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin said that he exposed his nine unvaccinated children to chicken pox to help them become immune to the disease, The Daily Beast reported.

    People previously reported on the resurgence of chicken pox parties— gatherings where healthy children are put in the same room as a child who has the disease so they can catch it and "get it over with."

    Although this makes sense in theory, pediatrician Dr. Natasha Burgert told INSIDER that pox parties are an unsafe practice with potentially life-threatening health implications.

    Rather than host or attend chicken pox parties, parents should vaccinate their children to prevent the chicken pox and other viruses, Burgert said.


    Before the chicken pox vaccine became available in 1995, parents often hosted "chicken pox parties" similar to what Bevin described. During these gatherings, healthy children would be put in in the same room as a child who had chicken pox in hopes that the healthy children would contract the disease and "get it over with." Though this has been out of practice for some time, People recently reported on a resurgence of chicken pox parties.

    Although pox parties operate on the premise that most people who contract chicken pox once never get it again, that doesn't make them safe.

    "There is no way to tell in advance how severe your child's symptoms will be," the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) noted on its site. "So it is not worth taking the chance of exposing your child to someone with the disease."
    https://www.thisisinsider.com/what-a...ferrer=twitter
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  8. #1373

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Have you guys heard about the teen who went on Reddit to find out about getting vaccinated without parental approval because his mom was kinda nuts in that area and there were a ton of other people asking the same question and it went viral? It's gotten a good deal of attention. I think he might be from Ohio. Once he turned 18 he got the vaccines he chose to get and it's broken his mother's heart, etc. etc. He has two siblings that are underage who are still unvaccinated that he's concerned about.

    Anyway, he went to testify before Congress about this issue and some of what he said was that the antivax community was manipulating well intentioned mothers like his own with false information. I wondered when I heard this what kind of false information. I had assumed it was the autism narrative that seems to be the one plenty rely on as an excuse to avoid vaccinating their children, but I'm sure this is another one that I never considered. It's so ridiculous a claim that I couldn't possibly conceive someone putting forth the idea.

  9. #1374

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Quote Originally Posted by JazzNU View Post
    Have you guys heard about the teen who went on Reddit to find out about getting vaccinated without parental approval because his mom was kinda nuts in that area and there were a ton of other people asking the same question and it went viral? It's gotten a good deal of attention. I think he might be from Ohio. Once he turned 18 he got the vaccines he chose to get and it's broken his mother's heart, etc. etc. He has two siblings that are underage who are still unvaccinated that he's concerned about.

    Anyway, he went to testify before Congress about this issue and some of what he said was that the antivax community was manipulating well intentioned mothers like his own with false information. I wondered when I heard this what kind of false information. I had assumed it was the autism narrative that seems to be the one plenty rely on as an excuse to avoid vaccinating their children, but I'm sure this is another one that I never considered. It's so ridiculous a claim that I couldn't possibly conceive someone putting forth the idea.
    He's my new hero.
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  10. #1375

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennHarman View Post
    I love your comment, Ti: "Are anti-vaxxers really going with 'actually, the Black Plague wasn't so bad'?"

    There are historians who think that the death toll could have been as high as 60% of Europe's population, but even the very lowest estimates are 30%. Obviously, the comment above that we have antibiotics for it now is spot-on. But, while very unlikely, it is by no means inconceivable that an untreatable virus could rampage the population in modern times. And think about it....if we even use the low end, 30%, that would mean over 100,000,000 deaths in the US alone.

    ...

    GH
    I have said for some years that the reason Ebola has not been that virus you talk about is that it actually kills too quickly and therefore it does not have time to spread.
    If it had an incubation and spread time of weeks, we are talking one of the many End Of The World movies or books around.
    (Leave it to Ponchi to bring in the cheerful scenario. I know).
    Missing winter...

  11. #1376

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    New York Suburb Declares Measles Emergency, Barring Unvaccinated Children From Public
    By Michael Gold and Tyler Pager
    March 26, 2019

    An executive order pulled close to 6,000 unvaccinated children out of schools. Nearly 17,000 doses of the measles-mumps-rubella (M.M.R.) vaccine were given in 26 weeks. There was a public health campaign in which community officials, doctors and rabbis testified to the importance of immunizations.

    None of those efforts stemmed the severe measles outbreak that has been plaguing Rockland County in New York since October.

    So on Tuesday, in an extraordinary step, the county executive, Ed Day, declared a state of emergency, effective at midnight, that would bar children and teenagers who are not vaccinated against measles from public places.

    Mr. Day said he believed Rockland County’s order was the first of its kind in the United States, and several public health experts said that they could not recall any action like it in recent years.

    The outbreak has been largely concentrated in ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities in Rockland, many of which have close ties to Brooklyn areas where there have also been infections. In both communities, vaccination rates tend to be lower and anti-vaccination literature has spread, public officials have said.

    The declaration highlighted the desperation of public officials to control the spread of a disease they have so far struggled to halt.

    “We must not allow this outbreak to continue indefinitely or worsen again,” Mr. Day said. “We will not sit idly by while children in our community are at risk.”

    Measles was proclaimed eliminated in the United States in 2000, but a handful of outbreaks have spread in recent years. There have been 314 confirmed measles cases in the United States in 2019, as of March 21, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    In addition to New York, there have also been recent measles outbreaks (three or more cases) in Washington State, Texas, Illinois and California, the C.D.C. said.

    Rockland County, with a population of more than 300,000, has had 153 confirmed cases of measles since October. Of those, 48 have occurred in 2019.

    Because of the scope of the outbreak and its persistence, some public health experts said they thought the county’s action made sense.

    “I think this is a measure that would highlight the stakes of measles and that would put a stop to these outbreaks,” Jason L. Schwartz, a professor of health policy and the history of medicine at the Yale School of Public Health, said.

    While Rockland County’s health department has made strides in increasing the vaccination rate, so far, only 72.9 percent of people in the county between the ages of 1 and 18 are vaccinated, Mr. Day said.

    As county officials tried to trace the outbreak, they were dismissed by some members of the community who refused to answer questions and even hung up the phone, Mr. Day said.

    Mr. Day cited this behavior, which he called shockingly irresponsible, as justification for his order.

    In December, Rockland County issued so-called exclusion orders barring unvaccinated children from schools with low vaccination rates. In New York City, health officials also issued an emergency order requiring that schools in certain ZIP codes block unvaccinated students from attending class.

    But as public health officials in Rockland County worked to contain the outbreak, they also found possible instances of measles exposure in supermarkets, stores and shopping centers.

    On Thursday, the county’s health department warned of possible exposure this month at a Target in Spring Valley, a village of more than 30,000 people.

    The order barring unvaccinated minors from public places will take effect at midnight on Tuesday and expires in 30 days. Included in the ban are restaurants, schools, shopping centers and places of worship.

    Mr. Schwartz said it has been common for decades to exclude unvaccinated children from schools during outbreaks.

    He said policies like Rockland County’s are a “logical extension” of that practice.

    “When you’re thinking about ways to limit the ability of measles to circulate among the unvaccinated, it makes sense,” Mr. Schwartz said.

    Dr. William Schaffner, a preventive disease specialist at the Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, said orders like Rockland County’s were a form of “social distancing.”

    “They’re taking all these susceptible kids and taking them out of circulation, in effect,” he said.

    Officials are particularly worried because measles is among the most contagious of the infectious diseases. The virus can live for up to two hours in the airspace where an infected person has breathed, coughed or sneezed, and up to 90 percent of nonimmunized people who are exposed to the virus will also become infected, according to the C.D.C.

    The M.M.R. vaccine, when given in two doses, is about 97 percent effective against measles.

    Daniel Salmon, a professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said the risk that the unvaccinated children would spread the disease to people who could not, for medical reasons or age, be vaccinated made Rockland County’s order reasonable.

    “One could even argue they’re compelled to take action because they’re responsible for protecting the public,” he said.

    Rockland County officials, Mr. Day said, do not plan on “chasing people down” and asking for proof that they are vaccinated. The prohibition will be enforced retroactively, with parents facing up to six months in jail or a fine of up to $500, or both, if they are found to have allowed unvaccinated children in public spaces.

    Rabbi Yakov Horowitz, the founding dean of Yeshiva Darchei Noam in Monsey, N.Y., a community at the center of Rockland County’s measles outbreak, said he strongly supports vaccinations, but he is worried that the county’s declaration might lead to potential harassment, attacks and discrimination against ultra-Orthodox Jews.

    Some public health law experts also expressed concern that the county’s order could infringe on civil liberties.

    Lawrence O. Gostin, a professor of global health law at Georgetown University, said he found Rockland County’s emergency order deeply problematic.

    He said he is a longtime proponent of making vaccines compulsory for children to attend schools, but questioned whether the order is constitutional.

    “This is virtually imprisonment of a child, and certainly significantly restricting the child’s liberty,” Mr. Gostin said.

    Because public health officials are given broad powers to deal with public health emergencies, it is important that they use them in ways that are not counterproductive, Wendy E. Parmet, a professor of health policy and law at Northeastern University, said.

    “Are you just going to make the situation in this community worse?” she asked. “Are you going to increase the distrust in health authorities?”

    Still, without knowing all the specifics of Rockland County’s outbreak and the government response, she hesitated to weigh in on the order’s constitutionality.

    “This may be the rare situation where this kind of order is necessary,” Professor Parmet said. “But in many of these cases, the devil is in the details.”


    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/n...id=tw-nytmetro


    From a reader:

    S.L.
    Briarcliff Manor, NY1h ago
    It is embarrassing that Mississippi has the highest vaccination rate of any state because they don't allow parents to make any decisions about vaccines. I guess they know their citizens could be misled easily by celebrities and others spouting pseudoscience. Unless a doctor has a reason that a child should not be vaccinated they are all protected by law. There are no religious or philosophical exemptions. NY state should follow suit.
    Although this epidemic is centered around a religious Jewish community, there is no religious reason to exempt any child.

    Evidently, there are a lot of unvaccinated children of other religions in other public schools who are complaining that they are prevented from attending school. Let their parents vaccinate them and they would be free to return to class. What is their excuse?
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  12. #1377
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    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    For the record, there is no such thing as "anti-vaccination literature." Literature, in the realm of legitimate, peer reviewed science, is expected to be science- and evidence-based.

    Not even fugitive literature falls within this category. It should be called "anti-vaccine, anti-evidence propaganda." Or something to that effect.

  13. #1378

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post

    Some public health law experts also expressed concern that the county’s order could infringe on civil liberties.

    Lawrence O. Gostin, a professor of global health law at Georgetown University, said he found Rockland County’s emergency order deeply problematic.

    He said he is a longtime proponent of making vaccines compulsory for children to attend schools, but questioned whether the order is constitutional.

    “This is virtually imprisonment of a child, and certainly significantly restricting the child’s liberty,” Mr. Gostin said.

    Because public health officials are given broad powers to deal with public health emergencies, it is important that they use them in ways that are not counterproductive, Wendy E. Parmet, a professor of health policy and law at Northeastern University, said.
    Oh, Professor Gostin. Reminds me of a few of my own professors. Gotta get out of the law book sometimes and look at actual past practices. This is very much constitutional, without question. Will you know this if you don't know about it anecdotally? Perhaps not, but you gotta ask questions to learn these things. But they regularly, and I do mean regularly, used to quarantine people for years and even over a decade with TB in order to prevent a larger outbreak. My great aunt was away from her family for 7 years in quarantine. This measure is tame in comparison and a practice used plenty in the past including with limiting measles outbreaks.
    Last edited by JazzNU; 03-26-2019 at 09:16 PM.

  14. #1379

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    A Netflix Nature Series Says to Viewers: Don’t Like What You See? Do Something About It
    By Jennifer Vineyard
    April 8, 2019


    The walrus scenes are astonishing. These walruses don’t have enough ice, so they’re hauling themselves over rocky areas and up cliffs. But they can’t get themselves off the cliffs, and they’re falling to their deaths.

    LANFEAR The walrus scenes were the hardest things I’ve ever had to witness or film in my career. When I was planning the story, I knew about the mega haul-outs happening in the region, and we chose the Russian site because it was the largest aggregation in the world, bigger than the ones happening in Alaska and Canada. But there was a bit lost in translation with Anatoly Kochnev, the Russian scientist studying these sites. There’s an old piece of news footage that I had in mind, and it was kind of like sausage rolls falling down. I was expecting that perhaps the walruses would tumble down, but at the end, they’d be O.K. I really wasn’t prepared for the scale of death.

    What we think is going on is that the ones at the top can probably hear the ones in the water, and they can sense that there is water below. They teeter on the edge, and they just can’t work out how to get down there. A small group of maybe six or seven would make it down safely, and we’d all celebrate. But the vast majority do not. They basically walk themselves off the cliff. The walruses are used to a soft landing. Their depth perception hasn’t evolved to deal with a cliff situation, nor have they evolved to work out how to get back the way they came. So it’s just tragic. It’s absolutely heartbreaking.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/08/a...imes&smtyp=cur

  15. #1380

    Re: Let's Discuss Science

    I just don't want to like the post above. Still, thanks Skating.
    Missing winter...

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