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  1. #31

    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirkus View Post
    If we go back to Dry's idea of certifying people before their allowed to be parents, a lot of these decisions wouldn't be unnecessary.

    I wonder if there's any data relating minors playing violent video games and having a propensity towards violence?
    When I was getting my psychology degree, I did a lot of independent study research on this. Inconclusive at best. Several studies link violent video games and hostility and lots of (not using this term in the strictly scientific sense) antisocial (including a lack of empathy) and violent behavior. The problem is that a link isn't much to go on - the classic correlation-causation thing. Maybe the games are making kids more violent or maybe violent kids gravitate toward those games. It's very hard research to do, because you can't ethically use kids (or I would argue, adults) as research subjects for the kind of research that would get really definitive answers. In the research that has been done, studies have shown nothing even resembling conclusive evidence that violent videogames (or even movies) produce long-term demonstrable effects on aggressive behavior on normal, healthy kids.

    That said, kids with histories of aggression and problems like these can be really negatively affected by the violent games. I'm guessing there's some kind of feedback loop thing, but I don't really know for sure. And there hasn't been nearly enough research done on this, considering how pervasive video games and movies are. I remember that this is the area I wanted to get into if I had continued on my psychology studies, but I chose the serene comfort of the library instead.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Sellers already voluntarily card purchasers of M rated games.

    Passing a law about it is just excessive as no one has passed laws abut movies or music. And no one has passed a law forbidding broadcasters from exposing children to violence on TV, either.

    The whole thing is ill-advised, IMHO. And cites junk research.... would you trust the "findings" of Focus on the Family studies on hotbutton social issues as a definitive unbiased source? Why trust studies with similar funding sources and clear agendas?

    Depictions of violence against human-like entities can be extended to cartoon like violence as well. Someone on the court made this excellent analogy to the push to ban Elmer Fudd cartoons back in the day.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirkus View Post
    If we go back to Dry's idea of certifying people before their allowed to be parents, a lot of these decisions wouldn't be unnecessary.

    I wonder if there's any data relating minors playing violent video games and having a propensity towards violence?
    There are, Kirk. But as I understand it, they are a little fuzzy because they don't take into account the more likely, very politically/culturally charged issue of whether or not there may be a genetic or environmental basis for violent behavior. We need to answer those question first, eliminate or affirm those possible linkages, and then we can take a more careful, more informed look at whether video games are associated with violent behavior. Video games are merely one of literally dozens of environmental exposures that may or may not contribute to violent behavior.

  4. #34
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by dryrunguy View Post
    There are, Kirk. But as I understand it, they are a little fuzzy because they don't take into account the more likely, very politically/culturally charged issue of whether or not there may be a genetic or environmental basis for violent behavior. We need to answer those question first, eliminate or affirm those possible linkages, and then we can take a more careful, more informed look at whether video games are associated with violent behavior. Video games are merely one of literally dozens of environmental exposures that may or may not contribute to violent behavior.
    That's exactly the problem. The video game industry is not as well organized and does not have the lobbying power in place that other mediums have. As a result, it tends to be an easy target for people who are simply trying to score points politically. "Look how I'm thinking of the children!"

    I fail to see why video games get singled out among all media otherwise. And lazy legistlation, just because, helps no one. Especially when existing oversight ALREADY does the job that they are trying to enforce by law. The industry voluntarily includes parental lockouts on ALL existing gaming consoles, has a ratings system ALREADY in place which will describe in detail game content above and beyond, retailers already have polices restricting sale to certain ratings to minors... and will in fact suggest to guardians purchasing games for children that they might want to be aware of content X before getting little Timmy a shiny new copy of Grand Theft Auto 4.

    But without a coalesced voice to represent the industry, you allow people to dominate the discussion with the idea that there is nothing in place when it is completely comparable to other forms of media, and better than the television broadcast ratings system. It's pretty ridiculous.
    Last edited by James7; 11-03-2010 at 09:07 AM.
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  5. #35

    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by James7 View Post
    Sellers already voluntarily card purchasers of M rated games.

    Passing a law about it is just excessive as no one has passed laws abut movies or music. And no one has passed a law forbidding broadcasters from exposing children to violence on TV, either.

    The whole thing is ill-advised, IMHO. And cites junk research.... would you trust the "findings" of Focus on the Family studies on hotbutton social issues as a definitive unbiased source? Why trust studies with similar funding sources and clear agendas?

    Depictions of violence against human-like entities can be extended to cartoon like violence as well. Someone on the court made this excellent analogy to the push to ban Elmer Fudd cartoons back in the day.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    It certainly is a complicated world in which we live.
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  7. #37

    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    The violence in the cartoons I grew up with is stunning to put it mildly. Is the tolerance of the old cartoons violence because for the most part it was clear it wasn't real?

    I don't play video games so I can't say anything other than this.
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Ti-Amie View Post
    The violence in the cartoons I grew up with is stunning to put it mildly. Is the tolerance of the old cartoons violence because for the most part it was clear it wasn't real?

    I don't play video games so I can't say anything other than this.
    I do play video games, so maybe I am biased.

    But it's pretty clear it is not real. Many cite "Mortal Kombat" for using photographed sprites of people and 'finishing moves'... but what part of a game where people fly vertically through the air, teleport, toss big colorful fireballs from their hands, or even inflate like giant balloons and explode sounds or looks like realistic, imitable reality?

    Court cases where people have tried to scapegoat video games in crimes they themselves have committed have all been rejected upon review just as the same argument has been rejected when brought against musical artists.

    California's legislation, among other problems, instead bypasses the need for a real link and instead simply assumes one exists, regardless of any evidence contrary and the utter absence of similar phenomena in comparable media.
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  9. #39
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Heads up other coasters, in its last segment tonight, 60 Minutes profiles John Paul Stevens, AKA one of our greatest justices (says I). He defends the rulings that gave Guantanamo detainees a right to a trial, and addresses the horrible Citizens United case.
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by jjnow View Post
    Heads up other coasters, in its last segment tonight, 60 Minutes profiles John Paul Stevens, AKA one of our greatest justices (says I). He defends the rulings that gave Guantanamo detainees a right to a trial, and addresses the horrible Citizens United case.
    He has an essay coming out this week in which he says personnel changes on the Court, coupled with judicial activism, have created a system of capital punishment that is shot through with racism, skewed toward conviction, infected with politics and tinged with hysteria, according to today's NY Tomes. And this is a man who in 1976, voted to restore capital punishment in America. (He subsequently changed his mind in 2008 and found it unconstitutional, though this was a minority opinion).
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  11. #41
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Moose View Post
    He has an essay coming out this week in which he says personnel changes on the Court, coupled with judicial activism, have created a system of capital punishment that is shot through with racism, skewed toward conviction, infected with politics and tinged with hysteria, according to today's NY Tomes. And this is a man who in 1976, voted to restore capital punishment in America. (He subsequently changed his mind in 2008 and found it unconstitutional, though this was a minority opinion).
    Funny how often that tends to happen as they age, huh? I don't agree with Brennan and Marshall that capital punishment is inherently unconstitutional, but I think Blackmun nailed it when he wrote that the death penalty cannot be carried through in a constitutional manner. And of course Blackmun concurred with that Gregg majority you're referencing to restore capital punishment in '76.

    To be fair, Stevens and Blackmun both voted to review the death penalty in 1987 with McCleskey v. Kemp. That was the case where a trio of professors had statistical evidence to prove that black-on-white crime was over 4 times more likely to receive a capital punishment sentence. Lewis Powell wrote for the majority to strike down the lower court and follow through with the execution. I read somewhere (though I couldn't tell you where) that after Powell left the court, he always cited his vote in that case as the one he regretted the most.
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Jeffrey Toobin talks about Bush v. Gore, ten years after.

    http://www.newyorker.com/talk/commen...co_talk_toobin
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Bush v. Gore is just bad jurisprudence. I'm glad the article brought up what always comes to my mind when I think about the case, which is that they include a proviso that this ruling is only for this case and shouldn't be used in consideration for future rulings. That isn't how the Supreme Court usually works; ordinarily, their rulings go into a body of work and create precedence that they and lower courts follow until such time that they take a case that would have them reconsider their position.

    The article has an interesting take, I have disagreed more with this court than most but my brain is a little too foggy from cold medication to decide at this point whether or not I agree with the argument.

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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by James7 View Post
    But it's pretty clear it is not real. Many cite "Mortal Kombat" for using photographed sprites of people and 'finishing moves'... but what part of a game where people fly vertically through the air, teleport, toss big colorful fireballs from their hands, or even inflate like giant balloons and explode sounds or looks like realistic, imitable reality?
    I think there is probably a decent correlation but it's so difficult to get a controlled study, to determine a causal relationship.

    Kids who are left alone to play lots of violent video games at a young age are, almost by definition, not being raised responsibly. So it might be just one more factor already in play. Also, it seems possible that kids with aggression problems and anti-social tendencies will be drawn heavily into violent video games, so you'll see that correlation, but the cause is flipped.

    I'd much rather seee funding going toward teaching social skills, conflict resolution, anti-bullying programs, etc. than crusading against video games.
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    Re: Supreme Court Watch 2010-2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    I think there is probably a decent correlation but it's so difficult to get a controlled study, to determine a causal relationship.

    Kids who are left alone to play lots of violent video games at a young age are, almost by definition, not being raised responsibly.
    So it might be just one more factor already in play. Also, it seems possible that kids with aggression problems and anti-social tendencies will be drawn heavily into violent video games, so you'll see that correlation, but the cause is flipped.

    I'd much rather seee funding going toward teaching social skills, conflict resolution, anti-bullying programs, etc. than crusading against video games.
    Thank you. And thank you.
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