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View Poll Results: Is Roger the GOAT?

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  • yes he is

    38 80.85%
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Thread: The GOAT

  1. #106
    Everyday Warrior MJ2004's Avatar
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    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles View Post
    I don't feel Serena is The Goat. Steffi is. The only thing Serena has done better is have one more slam. Steffi pretty much leads in every other singles category.
    Regardless of who the GOAT is, it's regrettable how much Steffi is being forgotten. Commentators barely even mention her.

  2. #107

    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ2004 View Post
    Regardless of who the GOAT is, it's regrettable how much Steffi is being forgotten. Commentators barely even mention her.
    I think the reason for that is that she's chosen to lead a private life. She isn't constantly on TV yelling at us, "look at me, look at me", like say, Martina Navs does.

    Recency comes into play as well of course but Serena doesn't even have a calendar slam. Sure she has a Serena slam but Steffi has a calendar slam as well as a Steffi slam, so by that count she has two slams.
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  3. #108

    Re: The GOAT

    As for Rafa, he averages winning one out every three slams he plays, which is an insane ratio when you think about it for the men.
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  4. #109
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    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ2004 View Post
    Regardless of who the GOAT is, it's regrettable how much Steffi is being forgotten. Commentators barely even mention her.
    The problem with Steffi, is that she didnít have the longevity, and more importantly in my view, didnít have the doubles prowess of Serena and Martina. You could easily make a case for her being the GOAT if you just count singles. But do people just count singles when they consider this?

  5. #110
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    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by liam_valid View Post
    The problem with Steffi, is that she didn’t have the longevity, and more importantly in my view, didn’t have the doubles prowess of Serena and Martina. You could easily make a case for her being the GOAT if you just count singles. But do people just count singles when they consider this?
    The biggest problem with Steffi for me will always be the Seles asterisk.

  6. #111

    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by liam_valid View Post
    The problem with Steffi, is that she didn’t have the longevity, and more importantly in my view, didn’t have the doubles prowess of Serena and Martina. You could easily make a case for her being the GOAT if you just count singles. But do people just count singles when they consider this?
    Basically, yes. If you count doubles there is only one person in the GOAT conversation for women and that is Martina. I know people say that Serena dominated doubles but that is not even close to what Martina did. Martina did 31-6 in GS doubles finals. Serena, although very good indeed (always with Venus), won "only" 14, although she and Venus have an incredible stat: they never lost a GS doubles final.
    So singles it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    The biggest problem with Steffi for me will always be the Seles asterisk.
    I don't know if this conversation started because of the blog I wrote, but indeed, that is my point. The Seles' stabbing will always be there.
    But if we go that way we then have to remember that Maureen Connolly won 9 Grand Slam titles, a calendar year Slam in 1953 and had to retire due to a horse riding accident, ALL BEFORE EVEN TURNING 20. So sure, Seles got stabbed, and Roy Emerson dislocated his shoulder when hitting the post at Wimbledon while going for his third straight crown, and Chris Evert did not play the French Open from 1976 through 1978 because of personal reasons and so on so on. We cannot make these calls based on the "what if". The numbers are there. Graf won 22, Serena is at 23, but as Miles says, the rest of the grid is worth discussing.
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  7. #112
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    Re: The GOAT

    I haven't liked GOAT debates for a long time. Not just in tennis.

    I wish we didn't have this need to numerically "rank" everyone's accomplishments. How about we just put them into tiers like some other styles of rankings do? Without putting one ahead of others in the same tier. Basically, bypass the need to sort Graf, Serena, Martina, etc and just point out that they represent something significant and greater than most of the field.
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  8. #113

    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    The biggest problem with Steffi for me will always be the Seles asterisk.
    Maureen Connolly fell off a horse. Does she get an asterisk?

    Tracy Austin was injury prone. Does Evert and Navs get asterisks?

    Course of many a history is altered by things out of our control.
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  9. #114
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    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchi101 View Post
    I don't know if this conversation started because of the blog I wrote, but indeed, that is my point. The Seles' stabbing will always be there.
    But if we go that way we then have to remember that Maureen Connolly won 9 Grand Slam titles, a calendar year Slam in 1953 and had to retire due to a horse riding accident, ALL BEFORE EVEN TURNING 20. So sure, Seles got stabbed, and Roy Emerson dislocated his shoulder when hitting the post at Wimbledon while going for his third straight crown, and Chris Evert did not play the French Open from 1976 through 1978 because of personal reasons and so on so on. We cannot make these calls based on the "what if". The numbers are there. Graf won 22, Serena is at 23, but as Miles says, the rest of the grid is worth discussing.
    I didn't see your post until after I replied here, but yeah... The enormous difference in all of those things is the locus of control. All of those people controlled their own destiny. Even Rafa's injuries are directly related to his playing style and scheduling choices. The Graf/Seles one stands alone. All the more so because the perpetrator did what he did specifically to get Seles out of the way so Graf could return to glory. And that's exactly what happened. Maybe it's more personal for me because I didn't like Graf at the time and I was so happy to see Monica dominate her, I dunno. It's by far the most tragic tennis story I'm aware of. I'm convinced Seles would have be up around 20 majors, when you look at the lack of peers in those years.

  10. #115

    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by James7 View Post
    I haven't liked GOAT debates for a long time. Not just in tennis.

    I wish we didn't have this need to numerically "rank" everyone's accomplishments. How about we just put them into tiers like some other styles of rankings do? Without putting one ahead of others in the same tier. Basically, bypass the need to sort Graf, Serena, Martina, etc and just point out that they represent something significant and greater than most of the field.
    I agree with you. I'm tired of the GOAT conversation, and there's no answer. It's all opinion. But we fixate on it because it's the ultimate competition, and sports are all about competition, winners, and losers. This topic distills one of the most important elements of sports - who's best. We keep score. Otherwise it would just be performance art. So I understand why we can't get away from it.

    To me, it's mostly a reminder that we're living in an era where this topic is extremely relevant, and for that I am extremely grateful.
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  11. #116

    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    I didn't see your post until after I replied here, but yeah... The enormous difference in all of those things is the locus of control. All of those people controlled their own destiny. Even Rafa's injuries are directly related to his playing style and scheduling choices. The Graf/Seles one stands alone. All the more so because the perpetrator did what he did specifically to get Seles out of the way so Graf could return to glory. And that's exactly what happened. Maybe it's more personal for me because I didn't like Graf at the time and I was so happy to see Monica dominate her, I dunno. It's by far the most tragic tennis story I'm aware of. I'm convinced Seles would have be up around 20 majors, when you look at the lack of peers in those years.
    You know, people always say Seles would have won a lot more, but even after the stabbing her body kept growing and changing, and who knows what impact that would have had on her game and court speed.

    Also I cite this:

    In 1987 Graf won her first slam at RG
    In 1990 Seles won her first slam at RG

    In 1988 Graf won all four Slams
    In 1991 Seles won 3 of the four slams - she did not play Wimby and hung out with Trump

    In 1989 Grad won 3 of the 4 slams
    In 1992 Seles won 3 of the 4 slams

    In 1990 Graf won the AO
    in 1993 Seles won the AO

    At this point in both of their careers, it was assumed they would continue to dominate 1990 and 1993 respectively. But we know that didn't happen. Graf didn't win another slam in 1990. Seles didn't win another major either in 1993 due to the stabbing.

    My point is, we just don't know, and can't predict since life turns on a dime.

    What we do know is Steffi made every slam final in 1993. If Seles had made all four slam finals that year as well, how would have things turned out? We just don't know...
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  12. #117

    Re: The GOAT

    If we want to dig deeper in the GS stats, here is something to ponder:

    Margaret Court won 5 on clay and 19 on grass and none on HC cause they didn't have any -- Took her 14 years to win 24
    Serena won 3 on clay, 7 on grass, and 13 on HC -- Took her 19 years to win 23
    Graf won 6 on clay, 7 on grass and 9 on HC -- Took her 13 years to win 22
    Martina won 2 on clay, 12 on grass and 4 on HC -- Took her 13 years to win 18
    Evert won 10 on clay, 5 on grass and 3 on HC -- Took her 13 years to win 18

    I think I have it right.

    Discuss.
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  13. #118

    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by James7 View Post
    I haven't liked GOAT debates for a long time. Not just in tennis.

    I wish we didn't have this need to numerically "rank" everyone's accomplishments. How about we just put them into tiers like some other styles of rankings do? Without putting one ahead of others in the same tier. Basically, bypass the need to sort Graf, Serena, Martina, etc and just point out that they represent something significant and greater than most of the field.
    I see your point but... it was the Monday after the last Slam of the season and two players of huge relevance had come closer to the record (Nadal) or failed to equal it (Serena). We are welcomed to discuss Angelique Kerber's loss in Asia but that one is too complex.

    About GOAT's. I feel they can be determined because, in some cases, they are clear cut. As much as he is hated, you really have to make one incredible effort to deny Tom Brady the mantle of GOAT QB. The same for Jerry Rice at WR.
    In Formula 1, to claim that anybody other than Michael Schumacher is the GOAT is pretty farfetched (although Lewis Hamilton is closing in quickly). In swimming, Michael Phelps seems pretty secure in that spot, in track and field Usain Bolt is a lock.
    The reason I bring the subject up is because, in tennis, there are so many nuances. If numbers were the only thing, it is Margaret Court and Roger. End of story. But Court is universally loathed in this forum while Roger is praised so you have to account for that.
    Some people like to include the social aspect of the players mentioned. If that is the case, then the GOAT's are Arthur Ashe, BJK and Martina. End of the conversation. But it does not work that way. One thing is TENNIS GOAT, another is VERY GOOD PERSON.
    And it is a Tuesday after the first weekend of the NFL, I really don't want to see NFL Fantasy silly videos, and I would rather spend it talking to you guys than listening to some infuriating news about how a president somewhere wants to argue about the weather.
    I vote Navs and Roger. For now.
    Missing winter...

  14. #119
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    Re: The GOAT

    Yeah, if y'all don't want to Talk About Tennis... you may be on the wrong board
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  15. #120

    Re: The GOAT

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles View Post
    You know, people always say Seles would have won a lot more, but even after the stabbing her body kept growing and changing, and who knows what impact that would have had on her game and court speed.

    Also I cite this:

    In 1987 Graf won her first slam at RG
    In 1990 Seles won her first slam at RG

    In 1988 Graf won all four Slams
    In 1991 Seles won 3 of the four slams - she did not play Wimby and hung out with Trump

    In 1989 Grad won 3 of the 4 slams
    In 1992 Seles won 3 of the 4 slams

    In 1990 Graf won the AO
    in 1993 Seles won the AO

    At this point in both of their careers, it was assumed they would continue to dominate 1990 and 1993 respectively. But we know that didn't happen. Graf didn't win another slam in 1990. Seles didn't win another major either in 1993 due to the stabbing.

    My point is, we just don't know, and can't predict since life turns on a dime.

    What we do know is Steffi made every slam final in 1993. If Seles had made all four slam finals that year as well, how would have things turned out? We just don't know...
    Miles,

    True, we just don't know. But the odds were pretty good that Seles would have reduced Graf's slam count - by what number we don't know, but before she was stabbed, she dominated the previous 2 1/2 years. It seems unlike that, barring injury, she would have fallen off a cliff in terms of performance. Therefore, based on the best available evidence, it seems safe to assume Graf benefited from several major titles I don't think she would have won. Could she have figured out a way to beat Seles? Possibly, but there was no indication she was at the verge of cracking the code. And her stabbing was specific because she was owning Steffi at the time. So, in all probabilities, Graf benefitted from several additional slam titles. Even when Seles came back, I think her performance was impaired by the trauma of what happened (and she was very slow in returning after the stabbing). This was more than regular tennis injury.

    And if we do factor in doubles as well, I think Martina moves to the top (or at least is in a tie) of the line - and she played in an era where it was much more common for singles players to also play doubles. Just my two cents.

    And last but not least - where are you in getting that reboot of the Invaders off the ground?
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