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  1. #2341

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Lawrence O'Donnell destroyed the GOP and it's "family values" rhetoric last night. I have to see if I can find the video.
    Found it.

    The Last Word
    ‏Verified account
    @TheLastWord
    15h15 hours ago
    .@Lawrence’s take on Trump’s immigration policy of separating children from their parents #lastword #msnbc pic.twitter.com/nfFVG7Lj53
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  2. #2342

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Boys Freed From Thai Cave Enter Monkhood to Honor Fallen Rescuer


    The Wild Boars soccer team and their coach, Ekkapol Chantawong, left, preparing to become monks at a temple in Mae Sai, Thailand, on Tuesday.CreditBen C. Solomon/The New York Times

    By Ben C. Solomon and Austin Ramzy
    July 24, 2018

    MAE SAI, Thailand — Three weeks after they emerged from a flooded cave complex, guided to safety by expert divers while their families and supporters around the world awaited word of their safety, the Thais known as the Wild Boars began a ceremony on Tuesday to become novice Buddhist monks.

    Wearing white, the boys and their coach walked in a line in the northern town of Mae Sai, holding their heads low and their hands together. Hundreds of fans stood behind them with their phones out, occasionally trying to grab a quick photograph as the team passed by.

    “It’s enough!” the acting head monk, Prayut Jetiyanukan, said over the loudspeaker system at the temple, Wat Pha That Doi Wao. Trying to keep a somber and respectful mood as the process to ordain the boys began, he added: “Fans! Please get back! They haven’t had a proper sleep in days and need their rest.”

    Hundreds came from all over Thailand to get one of the first public glimpses of the Wild Boars, the small-town youth soccer team whose members survived more than two weeks in a flooded cave, riveting the world’s attention. Just a week after their release from the hospital, all but one of the boys began the ritual to serve as novice monks, or “nen.” Their coach, Ekkapol Chantawong, will become a monk, rather than a novice, having spent almost 10 years in the monkhood.


    Monks with a portrait of the former Thai Navy SEAL member Saman Gunan, a 38-year-old volunteer diver who died during the rescue operation.CreditBen C. Solomon/The New York Times

    Not undergoing the Buddhist ordination is Adul Sam-on, 14, a stateless Christian from Myanmar.

    The entrance of the 11 into monkhood represented a new beginning after an ordeal that brought together thousands of volunteers from around the world, and that thrust the young Thais into the international spotlight.

    The 12 soccer players and their coach became trapped by rising water in the Tham Luang Cave on June 23. Two British divers found them in the complex 10 days later, sitting on a bank where they had survived off condensation from the cave walls. For the next week, a coalition of Thai Navy SEAL members, foreign military teams and volunteer cave divers banded together to guide them out. On July 10, the last of those trapped were rescued, and after 10 days under observation in a Chiang Rai hospital, they walked out as international celebrities.

    “They realize their lives are not the same as before,” said Somsak Kanakham, the district chief of Mae Sai. “We are trying to do our best to guide them.”

    Now they aim to show their appreciation through monkhood. In traditional Thai Buddhist culture, such an ordination can signify the repayment of a debt. For the boys, their time in the temple will honor Saman Gunan, a 38-year-old retired Thai Navy SEAL member who died while stocking air tanks along the underwater escape route. They will spend nine days praying and performing charity work in a Buddhist monastery.

    Traditionally, all Thai men are meant to enter monkhood for a time at age 20. If they choose to do so earlier, they are “novice” monks taking time to reflect and pay homage. In the wake of the huge efforts to rescue them, the boys’ ordination is not unusual. Most Thais practice Theravada Buddhism, and being ordained as a monk in someone’s honor is considered one of the highest tributes someone can give.



    Wearing white, the boys walked in line at Wat Pha That Doi Wao before their ordination.CreditBen C. Solomon/The New York Times

    Mattia Salvini, a scholar of Buddhism at Mahidol University, outside Bangkok, said that many religious activities in countries that practice Theravada Buddhism are understood primarily in terms of making merit, or creating good karma.

    In addition to making merit, another purpose of temporary ordination can be to better the karma of other people, including the deceased, by transferring merit to them, said Edoardo Siani, an anthropologist at Kyoto University who specializes in Buddhism in contemporary Thailand.

    “On one side, ordination for them is a ritual of passage, which purifies them after having spent a long period in an underworld that is populated by dangerous spirits, and after having caused trouble to others,” Mr. Siani said by email.

    Praphun Khomjoi, director of Chiang Rai’s office of Buddhism, said the objective was for the boys “to cleanse, pay tribute to Lieutenant Gunan and pay respect to the king.”

    Buddhist practices came into play during the team’s ordeal, as well. Drawing from his years in the monkhood, Mr. Ekkapol, 25, taught the boys he coached to meditate in the cave to stay calm and pass the time while trapped.


    As soon as their brief monkhood ends, the Wild Boars will begin new lives, most likely in the public eye.

    “In monkhood they will have a period of peace,” said Mr. Somsak, the Mae Sai district chief. “After that, it will be a new life for all of us.”

    For now, the Thai government has asked that the boys not be bothered. Officials have warned that anyone conducting unapproved interviews could face prosecution under Thailand’s child protection laws.

    Several film companies have expressed interest in producing works based on the team’s experience, and the government has said it intends to vet such efforts.

    In Mae Sai, local officials worry about how these offers may affect the town’s residents.

    “Fame is dangerous,” Mr. Somsak said. “These people aren’t from rich families. It can be tempting when they get approached with money and benefits that they’ve never had before.”


    Ben C. Solomon reported from Mae Sai, and Austin Ramzy from Hong Kong. Mike Ives contributed reporting from Hong Kong.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/24/w...oys-monks.html
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  3. #2343

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    In Nigeria:
    Landed in Port Harcourt, the third largest city in Nigeria. The poverty is conspicuous and everywhere. I am picked up by the main company, which takes me to my hotel in a bus (with other people) and we are escorted by a motorized armed vehicle.
    Out go the usual safety procedures. We are driving as fast as possible, slalom-ing through the traffic. The city is dark and the roads are a mixture of mud and broken asphalt.
    I start noticing a pattern. Everywhere I look, I see churches. Not the usual amicable churches in Europe or even South America. I see EVANGELICAL churches all over. The names of pastors and saintly men (they are all men) are seen on billboards announcing salvation. The names are all biblical but I am impressed by one church's name: RAIN OF BLOOD. We keep driving and the churches do not stop. One after another, lined up as we drive through the night.
    Salvation seems to be big business here in Nigeria.
    ---0---
    Poverty and religion. They go so easily hand in hand. And the psychic vampires are so good at it.
    Missing winter...

  4. #2344

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Why is it that Bergoglio's covering up of sexual abuse and assault minors does not surprise me ONE BIT?
    Catholic Cardinal Calls On Pope Francis To Step Down Over Alleged Sexual Abuse Coverup
    Missing winter...

  5. #2345

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Apparently, there is a pretty widespread opinion that these calls for him to step down are coming from men within the church who are simply using this as a possible way to get rid of someone they don't like because he is too liberal.

    Not really addressing that point but rather: I also would strongly suspect that he has, at times in his career, been involved in the cover-up of sexual abuse. From the various statistics that keep coming out, the abuse appears to have been sufficiently widespread that they had to ALL know about some amount of it. Therefore, at least the vast majority (if not all) were complicit in the cover-up. Knowing and remaining silent definitely qualifies as cover-up, though a huge percentage seems to have been involved in more active ways.

    GH

  6. #2346

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennHarman View Post
    Apparently, there is a pretty widespread opinion that these calls for him to step down are coming from men within the church who are simply using this as a possible way to get rid of someone they don't like because he is too liberal.

    Not really addressing that point but rather: I also would strongly suspect that he has, at times in his career, been involved in the cover-up of sexual abuse. From the various statistics that keep coming out, the abuse appears to have been sufficiently widespread that they had to ALL know about some amount of it. Therefore, at least the vast majority (if not all) were complicit in the cover-up. Knowing and remaining silent definitely qualifies as cover-up, though a huge percentage seems to have been involved in more active ways.

    GH
    you're 100% correct that this is coming from very conservative men in the hierarchy.

    Sadly they're all, dare I say it, complicit.
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  7. #2347
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    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    This discussion is a fitting introduction to one of my favorite quotes: "Silence in the face of injustice is complicity with the oppressor." ~ Ginetta Sagan

  8. #2348

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    When someone near and dear starts in about "Happy Holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" throw this one at 'em.

    Cheri Jacobus
    ‏Verified account
    @CheriJacobus

    A delegation of US evangelicals met with the Saudi Crown Prince. Michele Bachmann and her delegation are soliciting prayers for the Crown Prince who recently had a journalist tortured,murdered and dissolved in acid.
    https://mavenroundtable.io/theintell...utm_term=Cheri

    As Gandhi said (paraphrasing). There's nothing wrong with Christianity. It's Christians I can't stand.
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  9. #2349

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    I know, I know, I know. Steven Pinker leaves very little doubt that we live in the most peaceful and enlightened era. We live better than ever.
    But sometimes is just feels so not so:
    Brunei invokes laws allowing stoning for gay sex, adultery

    The above post claims it is Christians that we can't stand. And sometimes Muslims. And sometimes Buddhists. And so on and so on.
    Missing winter...

  10. #2350

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Pope Francis, Who Chided Trump's Border Wall, Gives $500,000 To Migrants In Mexico
    The donation will go toward helping those fleeing Central American who have found the U.S. border "closed to them," the Vatican said.

    By Dominique Mosbergen, HuffPost US

    Pope Francis, who has rebuked Donald Trump for his hardline immigration stance, revealed this weekend that he’s donated $500,000 in aid to migrants in Mexico who have sought a “better future in the United States” but have found the U.S. border “closed to them.”

    The Vatican said on Saturday that the Catholic leader’s donation — taken from the coffers of Peter’s Pence, the pope’s charitable fund — would be distributed to 27 projects across Mexico and would be used to provide housing, food and other necessities to Central American migrants fleeing poverty and violence.

    Many of these migrants, often accompanied by young children, have traveled thousands of miles “on foot and with makeshift vehicles from Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala,” the Vatican said in a press release.

    “In 2018, six migrant caravans entered Mexico, for a total of 75,000 people ... All these people were stranded, unable to enter the United States, without a home or livelihood,” the release said.

    Media coverage of the migrant crisis has been on the decline, the Vatican said, resulting in a concomitant decrease in aid for those who left their strife-torn countries for the U.S. but have been stranded in Mexico. This decline prompted the pope to act.

    Francis’ donation comes less than a month after he criticized Trump and other “builders of walls” who want to keep migrants out of their countries.

    “Builders of walls, be they made of razor wire or bricks, will end up becoming prisoners of the walls they build,” the pope told reporters on March 31 when asked to comment on a threat Trump had issued about closing the U.S.-Mexico border.

    “I realize that with this problem [of migration], a government has a hot potato in its hands, but it must be resolved differently, humanely, not with razor wire,” Francis said.

    In 2016, the pope suggested that Trump’s desire to keep migrants out of America was un-Christian.

    “A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,” he said, referring to Trump’s planned immigration policies.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/...b0fd8e35bd74da
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  11. #2351

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    I don't know if this should go here, but since it is Bergoglio talking:
    Pope Francis Decries All Abortion: Is It Legal to 'Hire a Hitman'?

    Another man talking about things that he should not be talking about. How about if you actually DO something about sexual abuse within the church, Jorge Mario?
    He is becoming more odious every day. What a frigging disappointment.
    Missing winter...

  12. #2352

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Ponchi, agree....I didn't post about it when it was in the press, and now it's been a couple of weeks. But there was an editorial in our paper about the fact that the Catholic Church (I think this was directly from the pope) said that sexual abuse within the church is to be reported directly within church channels and not immediately to law enforcement.

    The editorialist said almost exactly what I was thinking: How dare you state this policy at this point in the proceedings? It is clear that the church has been incredibly guilty of covering up sexual abuse, even of incredibly frequent and incredibly severe magnitudes. The opposite should be the new policy: While reporting it within church channels is probably still appropriate, law enforcement should be notified first or at worst simultaneously. Why would anyone trust the church at this point to do the right things?

    I echo Ponchi....."What a frigging disappointment."

    GH

  13. #2353

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Because of this idea that RELIGION gets a pass on everything.
    In any other decent environment if you do not report the sexual abuse of a minor you are an accomplice. As it should be.
    But not if you are the church.
    C. Hitchens: "Religion poisons everything".
    Missing winter...

  14. #2354

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    The Church's position on abortion is terrible, but they are consistently "Pro Life" - against the death penalty, euthanasia, etc. Pope Francis can't take any other position but I do agree that "keeping it in the family" so to speak is not a good look.

    He left himself open to criticism but it's better than Benedict who said the abuse in the Church was because "it was the 60's". That was the worst.
    "Even if you dance for your enemy on the rock, he will accuse you of splashing water on him." ~ African Proverb




  15. #2355

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    But with Ratzinger you KNEW where you stood. Ratzinger was an old fashioned inquisitionist, trying to hold people to the doctrines of a church entrenched deep into the middle ages. There were no if's or but's. You knew what was expected of you.
    With Bergoglio, you have no idea of how to be a Catholic because he is so ambivalent. About homosexuality: "Who am I to tell?" YOU ARE THE FRIGGING POPE! Your only function in life is to give moral opinions so come out openly. Against or for, but not this silly ambivalence.
    And Ratzinger was certainly a criminal regarding sexual abuse within the church. But he knew, you knew it, he knew you knew it and so on. With Bergoglio, who knows where this POS really stands.
    Missing winter...

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