Agree Agree:  103
Likes Likes:  121
Page 3 of 157 FirstFirst 1234567132853103 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 2348
  1. #31

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by JTContinental View Post
    My history: When I was about 4, my mother joined some freaky country church and got swept away by the spirit of Jesus. From that age to the time I was 17, we went to church for 2+ hours a stretch every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and Thursday night. Once I turned 10, this was expanded to 3 weeks of church camp every August, and several weekend "youth retreats" during the course of the year. Once at camp, I counted, and we prayed approximately 27 times a day.
    The horror.

    I probably would've died.

    I could barely get past 1 to 2 hours of mass every now and then out of boredom.
    Meet again we do, old foe...

  2. #32
    World of Venus Member Foxykhat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    St. Kitts, W. I. aka World of Venus
    Posts
    9,525
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by JTContinental View Post
    My history: When I was about 4, my mother joined some freaky country church and got swept away by the spirit of Jesus. From that age to the time I was 17, we went to church for 2+ hours a stretch every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, and Thursday night. Once I turned 10, this was expanded to 3 weeks of church camp every August, and several weekend "youth retreats" during the course of the year. Once at camp, I counted, and we prayed approximately 27 times a day.

    When I was 15, I started to ask questions about stuff they would teach, and was branded with an "attitude problem," so eventually I just decided to develop one. I had a camp counselor slap me one time when I sarcastically said I was going to leave camp if they broke out the snakes during a particularly fervent sermon (they got fired for that, though). I haven't darkened the door of a church since I moved out of the house; I figure if I haven't logged enough hours there to save my immortal soul then they can have it.

    Bible: Zzzzzzzzzz
    Jesus: Zzzzzzzzzz
    Afterlife: Zzzzzzzz
    Church: Zzzzzzzzz
    Lots of kids who spend their early years in church like you did retaliate at later stage in life, depending on how church and our religion was brought to them. Pressure I think it a major reason as they were not allowed to make the choice for themselves.

    I grew up in the church my mother made sure we went to church every Sunday (Pilgrim Wesleyan Holiness Chruch), morning and evenings, Sunday School, Youth meetings or anything the church was having like Girl Guides etc. We actually had CYC Crusaders for Christ. Which I LOVED attending and to this day wish I could still attend. However even with all this church going my mother never forced anyone of us to choose Christ. It was a decision we all made for ourselves when we felt it was right. And one I might add I've never regretted.

    My present church is a Pentecostal Church we believe in water baptism and the Holy Ghost. I don't recall every feeling dull here.

    I try not to get into arguments with people who knock religion, God and or the bible because for me God said, I believe and that settles.

    Bible: Fascinating
    Jesus: My God is an Awesome God an incredible God deserve incredible praise
    Afterlife: It's my promise
    Church: Amazing

    Foxy

    Can't believe I did not stay away from this thread.
    A. D. A. M. MEMBER FOR LIFE
    --------------------------------------------------
    I am not ashamed of Gospel of Jesus Christ!

    If It Doesn't Matter What You Believe, Then It Doesn't Matter If You Believe At All...I Choose To Believe In My GOD

  3. #33

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    OK, my story:
    Mother religious, not a practicer generally.
    Father, former religious. As he grew up he questioned the whole idea. I think he believes in some sort of higher power but he detests the Church.
    I was baptized, but that's about it concerning my contact with any religion till I was 10.
    Until that age I am ENORMOUSLY thankful that my parents did not inculcate me with any religious concept, nor for or against. I was oblivious to the whole concept of religion and Gods.
    Whenever I had a doubt about anything, they would answer with facts. As should be IMO.
    At age 10, when we moved, we were sent to a religious school. Not fiercely religious, but there was a resident priest and masses now and then. Also we had catechism classes.
    I still remember some funny things as I entered this new world:
    * my mother telling us not to say out loud how we felt about religion at school
    * at one of my very first catechism classes my classmates asked me if I believed in God. I said NO. They were appalled.
    * me defending abortion at around 5th grade also in a cathechism class.

    I eventually did feel like having to say that I did believe in God; but with time I grew up and realized that I did not believe in it whatsoever and started defending my positions.

    I find it funny that we as humans rule our lives based on logic and make decisions based on fact, yet when it comes to religion no fact or logic is needed since these are replaced by faith.
    So I believe in no God. I go by logic and fact. What science can't answer today does not bother me. 2000 years ago science could not explain lightning, 500 years ago plagues and 100 years ago cancers or how the sun lightens us. The answers will come in due time; be it 1, 10 or 1000 years. Not because of that will I chalk up any unavailable modern answers to mystical forces.
    Besides, I have a bunch of other reasons to support my stance. Yet let's leave this as is for the moment.
    Meet again we do, old foe...

  4. #34
    Forum Director
    Forum Moderator

    Awards Showcase

    Asteroids Champion, 123 GO Champion, Ball Of Madness Champion, Solitare Champion, Yeti Sports 8- Jungle Swing Champion, Putt it in Golf Champion, Yetisports 10 - Icicle Climb Champion, mahjong Champion, 247 Mini Golf Champion, Flash Golf Champion, Yahtzee Champion, Slingo Para-Dice Champion, Quick Words Champion dryrunguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    51,676
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drop-shot View Post
    I find it funny that we as humans rule our lives based on logic and make decisions based on fact, yet when it comes to religion no fact or logic is needed since these are replaced by faith.

    You make it sound like belief in God excludes and nullfies science. I don't think that's true at all. Though no doubt that would be true of some people.

    There's no reason why science, fact, and logic can't coexist, or even thrive, within just about any spiritual structure.

  5. #35

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by dryrunguy View Post
    You make it sound like belief in God excludes and nullfies science. I don't think that's true at all. Though no doubt that would be true of some people.

    There's no reason why science, fact, and logic can't coexist, or even thrive, within just about any spiritual structure.
    I didn't read what Drop-shot wrote as belief in God nullifying science at all. I read it as one of the conundrums I also find in religion: so much of our life is built on the application of logic, and yet faith is inherently illogical. That doesn't mean that religious people can't also be proponents of science, it means that very little (if anything) that composes their religious beliefs can be proved by any kind of logic, and yet they still believe it.

    It's the proverbial "leap of faith". Those who are religious don't need scientific proof of anything to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, or that Mohammed is Allah's only prophet, or Buddha was Enlightened. They believe it on faith. And for some people this leap is unfathomable.

    That's how I read Drop-shot. But maybe I'm completely wrong.
    B*tch, please

  6. #36
    Forum Director
    Forum Moderator

    Awards Showcase

    Asteroids Champion, 123 GO Champion, Ball Of Madness Champion, Solitare Champion, Yeti Sports 8- Jungle Swing Champion, Putt it in Golf Champion, Yetisports 10 - Icicle Climb Champion, mahjong Champion, 247 Mini Golf Champion, Flash Golf Champion, Yahtzee Champion, Slingo Para-Dice Champion, Quick Words Champion dryrunguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    51,676
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by pamchenko View Post
    I didn't read what Drop-shot wrote as belief in God nullifying science at all. I read it as one of the conundrums I also find in religion: so much of our life is built on the application of logic, and yet faith is inherently illogical. That doesn't mean that religious people can't also be proponents of science, it means that very little (if anything) that composes their religious beliefs can be proved by any kind of logic, and yet they still believe it.

    It's the proverbial "leap of faith". Those who are religious don't need scientific proof of anything to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, or that Mohammed is Allah's only prophet, or Buddha was Enlightened. They believe it on faith. And for some people this leap is unfathomable.

    That's how I read Drop-shot. But maybe I'm completely wrong.

    Yes, my interpretation was different.

    Pam (et al), would you consider science a religion? After all, if it defines an overarching belief structure, it sounds like a religion to me. Of course, I've also argued that atheism is a religion. (Though no one whats to admit it.)

  7. #37

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by dryrunguy View Post
    Pam (et al), would you consider science a religion? After all, if it defines an overarching belief structure, it sounds like a religion to me. Of course, I've also argued that atheism is a religion. (Though no one whats to admit it.)
    I don't consider science a religion. I guess because to me there's no overarching "science", and scientists' personal beliefs are too hard to pin down. I don't see any one belief that unites scientists, so to me there's nothing to label as religion.

    Atheism to me is harder to pin down. I don't think it's a religion, but maybe that's just because I don't define absolutely every belief system as "religion". I believe strongly in a loose construction of the US Constitution, as do many other people, but I don't think that's a religion. I guess to me a religion implies some kind of belief in the supernatural, and since atheism is the absence of belief in the supernatural, I probably wouldn't argue that it's a religion. But I certainly understand that argument.
    B*tch, please

  8. #38
    Forum Director
    Forum Moderator

    Awards Showcase

    Asteroids Champion, 123 GO Champion, Ball Of Madness Champion, Solitare Champion, Yeti Sports 8- Jungle Swing Champion, Putt it in Golf Champion, Yetisports 10 - Icicle Climb Champion, mahjong Champion, 247 Mini Golf Champion, Flash Golf Champion, Yahtzee Champion, Slingo Para-Dice Champion, Quick Words Champion dryrunguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    51,676
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    [quote=pamchenko;371461]I don't consider science a religion. I guess because to me there's no overarching "science", and scientists' personal beliefs are too hard to pin down. I don't see any one belief that unites scientists, so to me there's nothing to label as religion.

    [quote]

    Except that, to some, science is the only true source of truth... Many Christians would say the same about the Bible, yet even those who believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God interpet its contents differently.

    I've always thought religion was less about the supernatural and more about an overarching belief structure... So that's probably why I see some parallels...

  9. #39

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    To me, saying "I believe in science" doesn't really mean anything, which is why I don't see it as a form of religion. What science? Scientific method? Physical biology? Astronomy? I just don't see the different branches of science as tied together enough to produce a working philosophy.

    But then, I was always an absolutely terrible science student, so it's possible that this is just my synapses misfiring.
    B*tch, please

  10. #40
    Slam Watcher rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    8,195

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Except that, to some, science is the only true source of truth... Many Christians would say the same about the Bible, yet even those who believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God interpet its contents differently.

    I've always thought religion was less about the supernatural and more about an overarching belief structure... So that's probably why I see some parallels...
    dry, like pam, I also dont consider science a religion. It does not purport itself to be the source of all truth, like religion does. About things that are unknown, (like the origin of the universe, or the original source of life on earth, or whether time travel is possible), it makes no definitive statement at all, other than rule out possibilities inconsistent with what we see in the universe right now. Ultimately, science never claims that is correct. It is altogether possible, for example, that Einstein was totally wrong and another theory can explain the world better. So, I guess one can say that the goal of science is to be the Truth, but it readily acknowledges that it is impossible to ever verify that this goal has been reached. All it can do is compare its predictions to events in the real world and find consistencies. Religion, on the other hand, claims that it knows the Truth a priori.

    So, on matters that nothing can be said about, there is nothing illogical to believe in some religious explanation. But what really bothers me is seeing people blindly reject explanations (such as evolution) that are founded on undeniable facts and embrace other completely unjustifiable ones simply because you have been told to.

  11. #41

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Science also evolves and self-corrects. Religion stays more firm over time.
    It's hard out here for a Zuz.

  12. #42
    Slam Watcher rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Posts
    8,195

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Two, I guess more philosophical, points about my post above.

    1. I said that science can propose theories but can never verify that it has the correct explanation. Independent of science or whatever, I find this really interesting. Usually, in math, finding the explanation is the hard part but verifying that the explanation is correct is easy. Like, say, we want to see that there are infinitely many prime numbers. Once the argument is given (btw, this is so beautiful that everyone needs to see it once in their life ), it is trivial to check that the argument works, but only a genius, like Euclid, could have come up with it (especially in 300 BC).

    To me, it would be quite interesting to come up with a formal model, where it is relatively easy to generate explanations but hard (or impossible) to check their validity completely. In such a model, can we still come close to the real explanation by testing different "parts" of our explanation and trying to explore other possibilities in the inconsistent "parts"?

    2. For me, math is so much more philosophically satisfying than science precisely because in math, you know that whatever is true can be found by starting from some base assumed truths and then finding their logical implications. There is nothing more and nothing less. In a sense, then, all of math is a tautology because there is nothing really new. And yet...it is sooo gorgeous, with unexpected forms, structure and connections coming up all over the place. It is mysterious then exactly what makes math interesting and nontrivial. This world of math, called the "Platonic universe", is something completely distinct from the real world where science operates.

  13. #43
    Forum Director
    Forum Moderator

    Awards Showcase

    Asteroids Champion, 123 GO Champion, Ball Of Madness Champion, Solitare Champion, Yeti Sports 8- Jungle Swing Champion, Putt it in Golf Champion, Yetisports 10 - Icicle Climb Champion, mahjong Champion, 247 Mini Golf Champion, Flash Golf Champion, Yahtzee Champion, Slingo Para-Dice Champion, Quick Words Champion dryrunguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    51,676
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by oohsalmon View Post
    Science also evolves and self-corrects. Religion stays more firm over time.
    I agree with the point about science. But religion, in terms of how it is practiced, has evolved tremendously. At least that would be true of Christianity. I doubt that the early church scattered as a result of persecution from the Romans imagined that, 2000 years later, there would be hundreds of denominations. And even 100 years ago, I doubt many of the various denominations of Christianity would have expected, for example, that there would be institutions like the Metropolitan Community Church, which caters to predominantly gay parishoners. Doctrine evolves all the time. People are always coming up with new, sometimes more accurate, sometimes more self-serving, interpretations of the original Greek or Hebrew text.

    I can't speak to other religions, though. Perhaps they tend to remain pretty constant.

    As for science, I was talking about it as a source of ultimate truth, though yes, still a moving and ever-evolving target. All people need some kind of a basic, fundamental belief system. Sometimes that's a particular faith/religion/source of spirituality. In the absence of that, it makes perfect sense to rely on another source for a personal sense of truth. Science makes perfect sense. For me, however, it wouldn't be enough. But that's just me.

  14. #44
    Forum Director
    Forum Moderator

    Awards Showcase

    Asteroids Champion, 123 GO Champion, Ball Of Madness Champion, Solitare Champion, Yeti Sports 8- Jungle Swing Champion, Putt it in Golf Champion, Yetisports 10 - Icicle Climb Champion, mahjong Champion, 247 Mini Golf Champion, Flash Golf Champion, Yahtzee Champion, Slingo Para-Dice Champion, Quick Words Champion dryrunguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    51,676
    Blog Entries
    11

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit View Post
    dry, like pam, I also dont consider science a religion. It does not purport itself to be the source of all truth, like religion does. About things that are unknown, (like the origin of the universe, or the original source of life on earth, or whether time travel is possible), it makes no definitive statement at all, other than rule out possibilities inconsistent with what we see in the universe right now. Ultimately, science never claims that is correct. It is altogether possible, for example, that Einstein was totally wrong and another theory can explain the world better. So, I guess one can say that the goal of science is to be the Truth, but it readily acknowledges that it is impossible to ever verify that this goal has been reached. All it can do is compare its predictions to events in the real world and find consistencies. Religion, on the other hand, claims that it knows the Truth a priori.

    So, on matters that nothing can be said about, there is nothing illogical to believe in some religious explanation. But what really bothers me is seeing people blindly reject explanations (such as evolution) that are founded on undeniable facts and embrace other completely unjustifiable ones simply because you have been told to.
    (In regard to your more recent post, you're obviously a Matholic! )

    My parents still subscribe to Creationism in full force. They also believe that the Bible is in the inerrant Word of God. Rather than even consider the possibility of adjusting their view of The Scriptures based on evidence, they'll reject evolution every day of the week. They're not alone. One of the things that, in retrospect, bothers me about my upbringing, which included 16 years of Christian education (and one year of heathenism at The Cleveland Institute of Music, LOL!), is the fact I was taught that science is a threat to faith... That science is a threat to God. And being a kid, I believed what I was told. Of course, I now know that indoctrination was all about one thing--insecurity. Rather than risk yourself by asking difficult questions, just believe what you're told, bury your head in the sand, and then reject anyone or anything that tells you otherwise, including science, math, or any other system of evidence.

    For me, the notion that a ancient writer was wrong when he/she wrote that the universe was created in 7 days doesn't diminish my faith or make God anything less. It just means a writer got it wrong.

    It wasn't until I was in high school that I really began to question it all. And it was finally in my young adulthood, when I was sure I had figured everything out, that I finally realized I actually didn't know shit about shit... And it was time to start over. And it was at that point that my faith truly began to take shape on a deeply personal level.

    So now I'm a work in progress. And I hope I continue to be a work in progress into my dying day. Because once I have it all figured out again, I'll know I'm in for being knocked down a peg or two.

  15. #45

    Re: Let's Discuss Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by oohsalmon View Post
    Science also evolves and self-corrects. Religion stays more firm over time.
    There's a part of me that wants to agree with you. The louder part thinks this statement is SOOOOO wrong.

    It's odd, because I think a lot of religious dogma is old fashioned. Still, I think that it's old fashioned for the current time period. If you look over a bunch of church sermons and the values and prejudices sounds like an average person in the 1940s, then they're probably documents from the 1970s. Today I would say that a lot of religious opinions on current topics are "average opinions" from the 1960s-80s. I fully expect that there will be a time in my lifetime when the "common" church doesn't have anything negative to say about homosexuality, and may act like it never did. (The correctness of owning slaves used to be preached about...)

    So religious is old fashioned, but it's old fashioned to whatever is current. It's currently old fashioned.

    ::
    In my opinion, "The Church" wants to have authority, and lots of it. New and opposing ideas threaten that authority. This isn't a new concept either. Jesus wasn't particularly well received by the religious power figures of his time. That's why when I ask myself "WWJD," which I actually do frequently, the answer I come up with is to openly challenge a lot of reiligous doctrine in a vehement and often angry fashion.

    I think "The Church" is screwing up a lot of things, and I think Jesus would back me up on that.

    (Disclaimer: a lot of churches and church-goers still do good things and have/are good people.)
    Last edited by Charlie02123; 11-14-2008 at 01:40 AM.

Page 3 of 157 FirstFirst 1234567132853103 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •