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  1. #17101

    Re: National, Regional and Local News

    Jeff, I really appreciate your effort to make a statement on this, which is a very difficult topic. I am going to add something that is far more frivolous, but serves as an example of where I am. Other than you guys, I participate in no social media except e-mails with individuals. I don't even do mass e-mailing. But I write quite a few personal e-mails each day.

    I decided quite a few years ago that I did not want to participate in the name-calling and piling on that became the norm in chat rooms, and other precursors of where we are now.

    So now, my frivolous story: In the very late 90's and early 2000's, I participated very regularly for a couple of years in a couple of figure skating chat rooms. Very soon, it became obvious that there was a pretty big population there who felt it was their duty to attack everything anyone said. And there were attackers on both sides of every situation. And the attacks got VERY personal and hostile. Every day, I would say I saw 20 posts that would have resulted in immediate expulsion from TAT, but almost all of them got by.

    Here is an example, a very real and in no way exaggerated example: Michele Kwan was very prominent in skating at that time. For reasons I'll never understand, she became very polarizing in the chat rooms, with some thinking she was totally without fault and without peer, and others, who seemed to start out mostly thinking she was over-rated, grew to overtly hate her. One could literally post nothing more opinionated than "I like Michele Kwan" or "I don't much like Michele Kwan", with the result being that a group of them would jump down your throat. I withdrew from both groups after a couple of years of putting up with this.

    So now, I am completely guilty of predominantly interacting within my "bubble" where people treat others with respect, but at the same time, a bubble where I don't have to listen to Trump lovers. I would not choose it otherwise. But I completely understand those of you who feel we have gone a bit far down the path of leaning the same way and not being overly welcoming to the opposite side.

    Oh, well. GH

  2. #17102
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    Re: National, Regional and Local News

    Quote Originally Posted by ponchi101 View Post
    But you should (BOLD STATEMENT).
    Ok. Thought experiment. Imagine another Venezuelan. He lives in Miami. Middle class, middle age, voted for Chavez in 1998 and supports the revolution. (And these people exist, believe me). This Anti-Ponchi (ponchi102?) holds a diametrically opposite opinion than the one by ponchi101. Whose opinion do you respect to the point of making a proper valuation of the situation? Choosing either one gives you perhaps a better perspective than either one of us because you could really say that you analyzed both sides.
    As I said, it will be hard for me and you to agree on this one (although how I wish we could do this in person). But it seems to me that you are coming from a place where RESPECT takes precedence over BEING CORRECT. RESPECTING a wrong opinion, to me, is wrong.
    And I do not know if you remember a blog I posted IN 2010 (man, am I good at predicting BAD stuff). It has been removed from the forum, so I will re-post it. Perhaps I can explain a little bit better there what I mean.

    (Last. My point was not about HATEFUL SPEECH or INTOLERANCE. There we agree. My point was about validation of ideas. That is where we have diverging opinions).

    You are contradicting yourself a bit, I think. You're arguing for tolerance of varying opinions but you're also saying we shouldn't respect "wrong" opinions. If it's an opinion (rather than a straightforward fact), only the audience can deem it right or wrong. So, then, you're also arguing for intolerance of opinions we think are "wrong" - which is the "cancel culture" you're against...

    So, in your example, Dry should both side with you over the "wrong" chavista Anti-Ponchi and also accept Anti-ponchi's opinion as fully valid and not deem him "wrong" and continue engaging with his opinion as a fully equally deserving one.


  3. #17103

    Re: National, Regional and Local News

    As we go into finer detail...
    1. Jeff's fantastic post says many of the things we are talking about. One of my worries about the entire current process is that I believe we are leading to a George Orwell's THOUGHT POLICE situation. As stated (not by me), the Yastremska post can be taken as an example. The response, to me, has been disproportionate. And the facts that she IS NOT AMERICAN must be factored in. Again, myself as an example: when I went to college in the states, Richard Prior (and others) would used the N word freely. I did it once, at a party. My (white) roommate pulled me aside and explained the situation. But for a foreigner, the nuances of race relations in the USA are delicate to the extreme and are confusing at times. Just imagine an 18 yo Eastern European going to a Dave Chappelle show and coming out with clarity about HOW, WHEN and WHO can use N in her speech. An easy task it is not.
    2. Remember that the conversation has diverged. Dry and I were talking about (again) the validation of an opinion. That was my original point. I don't see much disagreement in the TOLERATION of an opinion (see my blog). I do not think that anybody here is willing to accept Nazis marching down the street and say "oh, they are entitled to their opinion too". But, as much as their opinions would be very valuable, the opinion of a Jewish TAT member or of a NAZI TAT member (as Suliso says, at least one person that only joins us for the polls must be at the other extreme of our liberal tendencies) should be judged (or I would do so) solely based on the opinion ITSELF, not who is making it. Again, and in some sort of funny way, my opinion.

    And this has been one of those wonderful TAT episodes in which we can share some serious thoughts. The main reason I still come to this forum, 13 years later. I truly believe your opinions make us better. I hope they at least make me.

    M8. About contradicting myself. I hope I can explain myself better in my blog. Yes, Tolerating Intolerance leads to deeper issues. And I can't escape them.

    Now, back to posting silly polls about great players. Kind of time consuming...
    Face it. It's the apocalypse.

  4. #17104

    Re: National, Regional and Local News

    Well to be honest when I first saw Dayana's picture I thought it was done with light and shade. It was when I looked closer that I saw it wasn't. And even after that I thought it was very well done and a statement made without attendant screaming that made its point. I did realize that my reaction was probably in the minority.

    She would've been better off not to do it and like I said if Bajin had known in advance he would've told her not to.

    I prefer my TAT bubble too but I visit other sites where mob rule and intimidation seems to be the norm. I do participate in WaPo comments but even there people use the "ignore" function a lot and rarely engage with divergent opinions or "trolls" unless it's to tell them they're nuts or to say "Bye Boris" to a poster. Is it possible that it's the way some people phrase things that puts people off? If we get a real government again I look forward to disagreeing with many of the people who are now part of the Lincoln Project like I used to. But again many of those people are "olds" by todays standards.

    As for having a sane discussion on another tennis board forget it.

    And Jeff thanks for explaining what "cisgender" means.
    “No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up.” – Lily Tomlin.




  5. #17105
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    Re: National, Regional and Local News

    Want to clarify the term cisgender , as it doesn't deal with sexual orientation in any way. It just refers to someone identifying with the gender they were assigned at birth (i.e. someone not transgender, intersex, non-binary, etc.). I.e. if you were born with male genitalia, raised as a boy and identify as a male, you're a cisgender male. If you're also attracted to women, then you're a straight/heterosexual cisgender male.


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