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View Full Version : Former NBA Center Amaechi Comes Out



dryrunguy
02-08-2007, 09:05 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/nba/02/07/amaechi.ap/index.html

*****

Ah, here we go again... That infamous "locker room" fear... LOL!

Dry

shtexas
02-08-2007, 09:26 AM
"As long as you don't bring your gayness on me I'm fine," Randolph said. >:(

Moose
02-08-2007, 09:30 AM
I cannot wait til the day comes when the news that another Tier 3 professional athlete who decides to come out, in conjunction with a book deal, is greeted with the collective ho-hum it warrants.

dryrunguy
02-08-2007, 10:11 AM
"As long as you don't bring your gayness on me I'm fine," Randolph said. >:(

Yeah, he managed to out-do Lebron. I wonder if a teammate admitted to Lebron that he beats his wife, will that help to establish trust?

And of course, Moose's point is well taken. The timing is about selling a book that, otherwise, no one would really be interested in reading.

On a side note, I wonder if Ted Haggard's ears perked up when he heard this news..

Dry

Kirkus
02-08-2007, 12:01 PM
As long as you don't bring your gayness on me I'm fine," Randolph said.

What the hell does that mean?

jjnow
02-08-2007, 12:09 PM
The LeBron James comment is expected. I took particular interest in his reaction Lance Armstrong's homophobic jokes at last year's ESPYs.

As for "Don't bring you gayness on me." -- what an idiot.

jj

dryrunguy
02-08-2007, 01:34 PM
As long as you don't bring your gayness on me I'm fine," Randolph said.

What the hell does that mean?

Damned if I know. But I'm guessing that's probably why Randolph chose basketball as his sport of choice in his formative years instead of figure skating. Deep down inside, though, I bet he's a HUGE Emanuel Sandhu fan. ;) Of course, he would never admit that publicly.

Dry

mmmm8
02-08-2007, 04:07 PM
So, I don't get how LeBron's quote says "he didn't think an openly gay person could survive in the league." Isn't James actually saying either

1) If you are gay, come out
or
2) Don't be gay

But he isn't saying "if you are gay, don't be openly gay."

Foxykhat
02-08-2007, 05:37 PM
You know what FORGET I SAID anything.

Foxy

jjnow
02-08-2007, 05:58 PM
You know what FORGET I SAID anything.

Foxy

Uh-oh. Did you use the edit button, Foxy??

Now you've cued my interest. ;)

jj

dryrunguy
02-08-2007, 06:11 PM
So, I don't get how LeBron's quote says "he didn't think an openly gay person could survive in the league." Isn't James actually saying either

1) If you are gay, come out
or
2) Don't be gay

But he isn't saying "if you are gay, don't be openly gay."




Who knows what LeBron was saying. Of course, he's entitled to his opinion... Whatever that is. Something about an individual's sexuality being the centerpiece of trust. Or something like that.

I was more concerned about the Randolph quote... Like "gayness" is the latest strain of the Mutaba virus. There was a curious, latent fear there that fascinated me.

Dry

Foxykhat
02-08-2007, 06:19 PM
You know what FORGET I SAID anything.

Foxy

Uh-oh. Did you use the edit button, Foxy??

Now you've cued my interest. ;)

jj


LOL JJ yes I did.

Foxy

Kirkus
02-08-2007, 06:25 PM
"Gayness."

Perhaps it's something that can be sneezed out.

"Damn it! Cover your mouth when you sneeze. I don't want you to get your gayness on me."

Jack
02-08-2007, 08:32 PM
"Gayness."

Perhaps it's something that can be sneezed out.

"Damn it! Cover your mouth when you sneeze. I don't want you to get your gayness on me."


"You probably shouldn't sit next to her. She's only been gay for 12 hours, so she's still in the incubation period. You don't want to catch her gayness."

When I read statements like Randolph's, I get the sense that it's said to let everyone know they're heterosexual. Like they need to say something that doesn't directly criticize homosexuals, but it's got to let people know they're not homosexual, and will never be and could never be... but indirectly it's pretty stupid and insulting. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well here, but it's like the comment is more about themselves than the person in question. (Not to mention, if Randolph wasn't talking about himself, no one would be.)

special600
02-11-2007, 03:12 PM
This may be off the wall but here goes....This is one reason why I can't stand Anne Kirech(sp) the one who pretended to be ellen's girlfriend just to advance her career. I hate that woman, no wonder her career has not gone anywhere.

craighickman
02-11-2007, 03:36 PM
"Gayness."

Perhaps it's something that can be sneezed out.

"Damn it! Cover your mouth when you sneeze. I don't want you to get your gayness on me."


"You probably shouldn't sit next to her. She's only been gay for 12 hours, so she's still in the incubation period. You don't want to catch her gayness."

When I read statements like Randolph's, I get the sense that it's said to let everyone know they're heterosexual. Like they need to say something that doesn't directly criticize homosexuals, but it's got to let people know they're not homosexual, and will never be and could never be... but indirectly it's pretty stupid and insulting. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well here, but it's like the comment is more about themselves than the person in question. (Not to mention, if Randolph wasn't talking about himself, no one would be.)

I know exactly what you mean. And the statements are homophobic because they express fear of homosexuality. But they're also to telegraph their own heterosexuality. I have always found that men who have to say they're not gay in such a context usually engage in homosex.

dryrunguy
02-11-2007, 05:54 PM
"Gayness."

Perhaps it's something that can be sneezed out.

"Damn it! Cover your mouth when you sneeze. I don't want you to get your gayness on me."


"You probably shouldn't sit next to her. She's only been gay for 12 hours, so she's still in the incubation period. You don't want to catch her gayness."

When I read statements like Randolph's, I get the sense that it's said to let everyone know they're heterosexual. Like they need to say something that doesn't directly criticize homosexuals, but it's got to let people know they're not homosexual, and will never be and could never be... but indirectly it's pretty stupid and insulting. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well here, but it's like the comment is more about themselves than the person in question. (Not to mention, if Randolph wasn't talking about himself, no one would be.)

I know exactly what you mean. And the statements are homophobic because they express fear of homosexuality. But they're also to telegraph their own heterosexuality. I have always found that men who have to say they're not gay in such a context usually engage in homosex.

What's the saying, craig? "Fear comes from within."

Dry

jjnow
02-11-2007, 05:55 PM
...and we're back to the Snickers commerical. :o

jj

craighickman
02-11-2007, 07:24 PM
"Gayness."

Perhaps it's something that can be sneezed out.

"Damn it! Cover your mouth when you sneeze. I don't want you to get your gayness on me."


"You probably shouldn't sit next to her. She's only been gay for 12 hours, so she's still in the incubation period. You don't want to catch her gayness."

When I read statements like Randolph's, I get the sense that it's said to let everyone know they're heterosexual. Like they need to say something that doesn't directly criticize homosexuals, but it's got to let people know they're not homosexual, and will never be and could never be... but indirectly it's pretty stupid and insulting. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well here, but it's like the comment is more about themselves than the person in question. (Not to mention, if Randolph wasn't talking about himself, no one would be.)

I know exactly what you mean. And the statements are homophobic because they express fear of homosexuality. But they're also to telegraph their own heterosexuality. I have always found that men who have to say they're not gay in such a context usually engage in homosex.

What's the saying, craig? "Fear comes from within."

Dry

Doesn't come from without.

Moose
02-15-2007, 08:41 AM
Tim Hardaway, former player for the Miami Heat, probably wouldn't have made a good teammate for Amaechi:

Tim Hardaway: 'I Hate Gay People'

(CBS4) MIAMI Former Miami Heat superstar Tim Hardaway told a local sports radio show that he "hates gay people."

Hardaway made the comments while he was being interviewed by Dan Le Batard on 790 the Ticket Wednesday afternoon.

The five time All Star was asked how he would deal with a gay teammate.

"First of all I wouldn't want him on my team," said Hardaway. "Second of all, if he was on my team I would really distance myself from him because I don't think that's right and I don't think he should be in the locker room when we're in the locker room."

Le Batard took Hardaway to task, pointing out that his comments were 'flatly homophobic' and bigoted, but that only seemed to stir up the former point guard.

"Well, you know, I hate gay people," Hardaway said in response to Le Batard. "I let it be known I don't like gay people. I don't like to be around gay people. I'm homophobic. It shouldn't be in the world, in the United States, I don't like it."

http://cbs4.com/local/local_story_045205258.html

Aton
02-15-2007, 09:30 AM
Tim Hardaway, former player for the Miami Heat, probably wouldn't have made a good teammate for Amaechi:

Tim Hardaway: 'I Hate Gay People'

(CBS4) MIAMI Former Miami Heat superstar Tim Hardaway told a local sports radio show that he "hates gay people."

Hardaway made the comments while he was being interviewed by Dan Le Batard on 790 the Ticket Wednesday afternoon.

The five time All Star was asked how he would deal with a gay teammate.

"First of all I wouldn't want him on my team," said Hardaway. "Second of all, if he was on my team I would really distance myself from him because I don't think that's right and I don't think he should be in the locker room when we're in the locker room."

Le Batard took Hardaway to task, pointing out that his comments were 'flatly homophobic' and bigoted, but that only seemed to stir up the former point guard.

"Well, you know, I hate gay people," Hardaway said in response to Le Batard. "I let it be known I don't like gay people. I don't like to be around gay people. I'm homophobic. It shouldn't be in the world, in the United States, I don't like it."

http://cbs4.com/local/local_story_045205258.html

I love it...not Tim Hardaway whom I used to think highly of but finally somebody comes out and says exactly what we know many of them are really thinking, damn the fact that he's going to be the only one who gets treated like a pariah. But I for one appreciate his honesty and I'd like to let him know that if he were ever on fire I wouldn't piss on him to put him out (hey, I'm a lesbian, I wouldn't want to offend him by getting too close) but being that I love a man who tells the truth no matter the odds I would at least call the fire department...from a phone booth two states over...and I'd dial with my clumsy big toe.

Rock on, Tim!

Louche
02-15-2007, 09:59 AM
Hardaway's remarks inspired some others, too. It's always there.


Amaechi told Mike & Mike, broadcast on ESPN2, Thursday morning that since Hardaway's comments, he has gotten a flood of hate mail.

"Every comment he made is laden with hate," Amaechi said. "He has been a lightning rod for people to finally open the flood gates and decide that they can say some pretty awful stuff."

dryrunguy
02-15-2007, 10:06 AM
Tim Hardaway, former player for the Miami Heat, probably wouldn't have made a good teammate for Amaechi:

Tim Hardaway: 'I Hate Gay People'

(CBS4) MIAMI Former Miami Heat superstar Tim Hardaway told a local sports radio show that he "hates gay people."

Hardaway made the comments while he was being interviewed by Dan Le Batard on 790 the Ticket Wednesday afternoon.

The five time All Star was asked how he would deal with a gay teammate.

"First of all I wouldn't want him on my team," said Hardaway. "Second of all, if he was on my team I would really distance myself from him because I don't think that's right and I don't think he should be in the locker room when we're in the locker room."

Le Batard took Hardaway to task, pointing out that his comments were 'flatly homophobic' and bigoted, but that only seemed to stir up the former point guard.

"Well, you know, I hate gay people," Hardaway said in response to Le Batard. "I let it be known I don't like gay people. I don't like to be around gay people. I'm homophobic. It shouldn't be in the world, in the United States, I don't like it."

http://cbs4.com/local/local_story_045205258.html

I love it...not Tim Hardaway whom I used to think highly of but finally somebody comes out and says exactly what we know many of them are really thinking, damn the fact that he's going to be the only one who gets treated like a pariah. But I for one appreciate his honesty and I'd like to let him know that if he were ever on fire I wouldn't piss on him to put him out (hey, I'm a lesbian, I wouldn't want to offend him by getting too close) but being that I love a man who tells the truth no matter the odds I would at least call the fire department...from a phone booth two states over...and I'd dial with my clumsy big toe.

Rock on, Tim!

That's the Aton I know and love!

Dry

bea26
02-15-2007, 10:53 AM
There are thousands and thousands of people hearing those comments feeling empowered, because they think the exact same thing and finally someone's not afraid to say it. It's a shame, but it's also honesty. Pretending a patient isn't sick doesn't cure him.

Incidentally, Amaechi was on LOGO talking about how he doesn't want to be remembering for playing basketball because it was just a job about putting a ball in a hole. I thought that was kind of sad.

tennisbrp
02-15-2007, 11:44 AM
I for one was happy with Hardaway's comments only for the fact that I prefer to know how people really feel about issues rather than a sensored, candy coated corporate image skew of what their position really is. Better to know that he is a hateful guy up front.

Can somebody help me with the locker room issue? I have always been confused by the fact that if you are taking a public shower at a place with an open locker room, people around you will likely see what you look like naked. Are people really in fear of the predator who will glance over and what..... get the indelible image of someone's body? Then maybe they should shower at home. Also, I have seen some pretty damn weird naked behavior from many guys I play tennis or basketball with who are definitely not gay. I don't think the predator or exhibitionist trophys go to gays in locker rooms by default...I'd expect quite the opposite.

I love the use of "THE LOCKER ROOM" like it is some sacred place rather than often times what they are....smelly places where people shower who nobody usually wants to see naked in the first place. I'd rather endorse gays in the locker room and TOTALLY BAN the guys who take public dumps in locker room toilets. Nothing is worse than starting to get clean and having some hideous odor overwhelm the locker room. So, I endorse gays in sports but would like to ban anyone with a bowel disorder from them. How is that for open discrimination! I thin there is a book waiting to be written.

bea26
02-15-2007, 11:47 AM
I for one was happy with Hardaway's comments only for the fact that I prefer to know how people really feel about issues rather than a sensored, candy coated corporate image skew of what their position really is. Better to know that he is a hateful guy up front.

Can somebody help me with the locker room issue? I have always been confused by the fact that if you are taking a public shower at a place with an open locker room, people around you will likely see what you look like naked. Are people really in fear of the predator who will glance over and what..... get the indelible image of someone's body? Then maybe they should shower at home. Also, I have seen some pretty damn weird naked behavior from many guys I play tennis or basketball with who are definitely not gay. I don't think the predator or exhibitionist trophys go to gays in locker rooms by default...I'd expect quite the opposite.

I love the use of "THE LOCKER ROOM" like it is some sacred place rather than often times what they are....smelly places where people shower who nobody usually wants to see naked in the first place. I'd rather endorse gays in the locker room and TOTALLY BAN the guys who take public dumps in locker room toilets. Nothing is worse than starting to get clean and having some hideous odor overwhelm the locker room. So, I endorse gays in sports but would like to ban anyone with a bowel disorder from them. How is that for open discrimination! I thin there is a book waiting to be written.






Now this is a post.

nelslus
02-15-2007, 01:59 PM
Maybe I'm too old-school- but, I don't see how it serves any good purpose for us to get a "reminder" from the likes of Tim Limp-all-day about LGBT hatred. WHAT- who isn't aware that there's homophobia out there?!?! Sorry, I'm all for enough PC-dom out there that hateful folks get that it's best to shut the gosh-darn-heck up about their hatred.

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 02:28 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

nelslus
02-15-2007, 03:03 PM
Deep sigh......

bea26
02-15-2007, 03:21 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

tennisbrp
02-15-2007, 03:24 PM
Deep sigh......


I sigh deeply as well. What I meant above was nothing more than when I have an opinion of somebody that may be favorable (use Lindsay Davenport as an example), I would have no idea NOT to support her unless she made some view public that were so hateful. Although she is a poor example who likely loves all people, I had no particular dislike for Tim until listening to his rant. In that vain, it is nice to know where people truly stand. I do agree, howeve,r that nothing much good comes from Tim spewing hatred and maybe there is a point to him keeping hateful views quiet.

As far as people keeping their sexual preferences quiet which likely the cause of your sigh and mine as well, I could write half a book as to why I think this type of forced or suggested silence is harmful.

nelslus
02-15-2007, 03:38 PM
Deep sigh......


I sigh deeply as well. What I meant above was nothing more than when I have an opinion of somebody that may be favorable (use Lindsay Davenport as an example), I would have no idea NOT to support her unless she made some view public that were so hateful. Although she is a poor example who likely loves all people, I had no particular dislike for Tim until listening to his rant. In that vain, it is nice to know where people truly stand. I do agree, howeve,r that nothing much good comes from Tim spewing hatred and maybe there is a point to him keeping hateful views quiet.

As far as people keeping their sexual preferences quiet which likely the cause of your sigh and mine as well, I could write half a book as to why I think this type of forced or suggested silence is harmful.

Amen. (Just to be 100% clear- my initial "deep sigh" had nothing to do with your posts. Just about one other post.)

OY, the deep sigh was about so many things.....to narrow the "deep sigh" down just a bit, I just have had to deal with a lot in my life for being out so much. Every once in awhile, though, I get exhausted, and now and then allow myself just to go, "If they haven't gotten it by now.....", hoping someone else will pipe in. AND- I can always count on other TAT'ers to take up the gauntlet, when I'm just not in the mood.

So, to un-deep-sigh for the moment- and to ALSO be clear about this (and, again, this has nothing to do with tennisbrp's posts).....um, enough of us gay folks get, being gay ain't just about sex. It ain't US who obsesses over what kinds of sex we have. (Jealous, much?) Trust me, when we all get equal rights, and LGBT teenagers/kids stop killing themselves over how to handle being LGBT in this world, and folks stop getting maimed and killed for being LGBT (and/or even, horrors, being perceived as being LGBT), etc., etc.- then nelslus promises at that point to shut up about being gay, and will instead focus on such weightier topics as "Olga Morozova's Pig-Tails: Pro or Con?" But, until then.....

Foxykhat
02-15-2007, 03:41 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Important to who Bea? To the gay person that is finally happy that the world knows? Like it would really matter to me if people accept what I am or what am feeling. I personally think that to much of an issue is being made of the gay/lesbian issue right now. People entering rehab to deal with whether they accept someone's sexuality is ridiculous in my opinion when there are so much more horible things with the world. If Tim Hardaway don't like them, that's his problem, I personally prefer people like him who say I HATE YOU upfront tnat the ones that pretend and deep down they cannot stand my guts.

I think if the gay/lesbian is happy that's all that matters. Life your life, love who you love and to hell with who accepts it or not. Let who has the right to judge you (to me the creator in this case) judge you. Remember in life not everyone is going to love everything about you no matter who you are. And to me what I see happening and I could be wrong, is gays/lesbians are forcing people to like them and accept them. News flash not everyone will, that's just the way life is.

Foxy

nelslus
02-15-2007, 03:46 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Important to who Bea? To the gay person that is finally happy that the world knows? Like it would really matter to me if people accept what I am or what am feeling. I personally think that to much of an issue is being made of the gay/lesbian issue right now. People entering rehab to deal with whether they accept someone's sexuality is ridiculous in my opinion when there are so much more horible things with the world. If Tim Hardaway don't like them, that's his problem, I personally prefer people like him who say I HATE YOU upfront tnat the ones that pretend and deep down they cannot stand my guts.

I think if the gay/lesbian is happy that's all that matters. Life your life, love who you love and to hell with who accepts it or not. Let who has the right to judge you (to me the creator in this case) judge you. Remember in life not everyone is going to love everything about you no matter who you are. And to me what I see happening and I could be wrong, is gays/lesbians are forcing people to like them and accept them. News flash not everyone will, that's just the way life is.

Foxy





No, enough of us are not trying to force people to like or accept us. I truly do not care what anyone thinks or feels about me being gay. But, try to take away my rights? Now we have a problem. If THAT take us being forceful- then, so be it.

bea26
02-15-2007, 03:53 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Important to who Bea? To the gay person that is finally happy that the world knows? Like it would really matter to me if people accept what I am or what am feeling. I personally think that to much of an issue is being made of the gay/lesbian issue right now. People entering rehab to deal with whether they accept someone's sexuality is ridiculous in my opinion when there are so much more horible things with the world. If Tim Hardaway don't like them, that's his problem, I personally prefer people like him who say I HATE YOU upfront tnat the ones that pretend and deep down they cannot stand my guts.

I think if the gay/lesbian is happy that's all that matters. Life your life, love who you love and to hell with who accepts it or not. Let who has the right to judge you (to me the creator in this case) judge you. Remember in life not everyone is going to love everything about you no matter who you are. And to me what I see happening and I could be wrong, is gays/lesbians are forcing people to like them and accept them. News flash not everyone will, that's just the way life is.

Foxy





I'm not suggesting people be open about who and what they to force people to like or accept them. I'm suggesting everyone (gay or otherwise) has something about them that, because it's outside the collective comfort zone, they keep secret to fit in and that leads to unnecessary shame and victimization.

And you're right, the rehab thing is ridiculous. I don't think any gay person feels that isn't foolish or transparent.

mmmm8
02-15-2007, 04:32 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Important to who Bea? To the gay person that is finally happy that the world knows? Like it would really matter to me if people accept what I am or what am feeling. I personally think that to much of an issue is being made of the gay/lesbian issue right now. People entering rehab to deal with whether they accept someone's sexuality is ridiculous in my opinion when there are so much more horible things with the world. If Tim Hardaway don't like them, that's his problem, I personally prefer people like him who say I HATE YOU upfront tnat the ones that pretend and deep down they cannot stand my guts.

I think if the gay/lesbian is happy that's all that matters. Life your life, love who you love and to hell with who accepts it or not. Let who has the right to judge you (to me the creator in this case) judge you. Remember in life not everyone is going to love everything about you no matter who you are. And to me what I see happening and I could be wrong, is gays/lesbians are forcing people to like them and accept them. News flash not everyone will, that's just the way life is.

Foxy





Foxy, besides the acceptance issue, there is a big issue of legal rights. You can't be just happy with who you love if you know that when who you love is in the hospital, you are not guaranteed the visitation rights that family members have, and that's just a minor example.

I'm not even talking about hate crimes. Some people go beyond "not liking/accepting" gays into a whole other territory.

It's one thing when people don't like/accept you, it's another thing when the government doesn't.

mmmm8
02-15-2007, 04:33 PM
Deep sigh......


I sigh deeply as well. What I meant above was nothing more than when I have an opinion of somebody that may be favorable (use Lindsay Davenport as an example), I would have no idea NOT to support her unless she made some view public that were so hateful. Although she is a poor example who likely loves all people, I had no particular dislike for Tim until listening to his rant. In that vain, it is nice to know where people truly stand. I do agree, howeve,r that nothing much good comes from Tim spewing hatred and maybe there is a point to him keeping hateful views quiet.

As far as people keeping their sexual preferences quiet which likely the cause of your sigh and mine as well, I could write half a book as to why I think this type of forced or suggested silence is harmful.

Amen. (Just to be 100% clear- my initial "deep sigh" had nothing to do with your posts. Just about one other post.)

OY, the deep sigh was about so many things.....to narrow the "deep sigh" down just a bit, I just have had to deal with a lot in my life for being out so much. Every once in awhile, though, I get exhausted, and now and then allow myself just to go, "If they haven't gotten it by now.....", hoping someone else will pipe in. AND- I can always count on other TAT'ers to take up the gauntlet, when I'm just not in the mood.

So, to un-deep-sigh for the moment- and to ALSO be clear about this (and, again, this has nothing to do with tennisbrp's posts).....um, enough of us gay folks get, being gay ain't just about sex. It ain't US who obsesses over what kinds of sex we have. (Jealous, much?) Trust me, when we all get equal rights, and LGBT teenagers/kids stop killing themselves over how to handle being LGBT in this world, and folks stop getting maimed and killed for being LGBT (and/or even, horrors, being perceived as being LGBT), etc., etc.- then nelslus promises at that point to shut up about being gay, and will instead focus on such weightier topics as "Olga Morozova's Pig-Tails: Pro or Con?" But, until then.....


Definitely a con:

http://www.mosnews.com/files/2928/13.jpg

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 04:34 PM
Deep sigh......


I sigh deeply as well. What I meant above was nothing more than when I have an opinion of somebody that may be favorable (use Lindsay Davenport as an example), I would have no idea NOT to support her unless she made some view public that were so hateful. Although she is a poor example who likely loves all people, I had no particular dislike for Tim until listening to his rant. In that vain, it is nice to know where people truly stand. I do agree, howeve,r that nothing much good comes from Tim spewing hatred and maybe there is a point to him keeping hateful views quiet.

As far as people keeping their sexual preferences quiet which likely the cause of your sigh and mine as well, I could write half a book as to why I think this type of forced or suggested silence is harmful.

The "deep sigh" doesn't make any sense...I did not say one word about 'forced silence"!! I said whats the big deal about who you have sex with??? If its okay with your partner, it means nothing to me....What do we do next??? Do we have to go public with our fetishes to ensure our private behavior is acceptable??? My question is why the "in your face" coming out announcement from gay/lesbian sexers??? Just don't understand the need for the announcement...Date whoever you choose to date and be happy...Have sex with whomever you mutually hit it off with...Whats the big deal??? I just don't get it!!! When sexuial activity is permissable in public, it certainly become relevant at that time...Even then an announcement would be irrelevant??? Most sexual activity occurs in private locations or private sex parties

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 04:44 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Visibility is important to who?? help me understand your point...Sex is predominantly and conventionally a private affair...I understand the gay marriage issue...But i have never understood this public "coming out" announcement..I mean who really cares??? I enjoy sex immensely no matter who knows or does not know what i am doing or who i am doing it with...Its so irrelevant i don't understand why this guy had to announce to the world he likes men!!!!It seems like he is trying to expunge some insecurity and guilt...If you are secure in who you are in your sex life, you don't need the approval of others

dryrunguy
02-15-2007, 04:47 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Visibility is important to who?? help me understand your point...Sex is predominantly and conventionally a private affair...I understand the gay marriage issue...But i have never understood this public "coming out" announcement..I mean who really cares??? I enjoy sex immensely no matter who knows or does not know what i am doing or who i am doing it with...Its so irrelevant i don't understand why this guy had to announce to the world he likes men!!!!It seems like he is trying to expunge some insecurity and guilt...If you are secure in who you are in your sex life, you don't need the approval of others

I assume, then, that you're equally opposed to wedding and anniversary announcements in the newspaper for straight couples? And someone having a picture of his wife on his office desk? After all, that would be "in your face" to gay people. Right?

Dry

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 04:53 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Visibility is important to who?? help me understand your point...Sex is predominantly and conventionally a private affair...I understand the gay marriage issue...But i have never understood this public "coming out" announcement..I mean who really cares??? I enjoy sex immensely no matter who knows or does not know what i am doing or who i am doing it with...Its so irrelevant i don't understand why this guy had to announce to the world he likes men!!!!It seems like he is trying to expunge some insecurity and guilt...If you are secure in who you are in your sex life, you don't need the approval of others

I assume, then, that you're equally opposed to wedding and anniversary announcements in the newspaper for straight couples? And someone having a picture of his wife on his office desk? After all, that would be "in your face" to gay people. Right?

Dry

Thats completely incompetent and off point...Ameche didn't announce a wedding to a man...he simply announced he prefers sex with men...heterosexuals don't make such public pronouncements...In States where gay marriage is legal one would assume the newspaper press for nupitals are status quo if the couple so desires...Finally, if i can calm my laughter long enough to type, why would a picture on a desk offend if it avoided the realm of the indecent(ala porn)...If i see a picture of two men on a desk, i don't know if its brothers, cousins, fishing or fraternity brothers or gay lovers....Why would i even care???

bea26
02-15-2007, 05:09 PM
In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to come out. Because you wouldn't be in. This isn't a perfect world. It's a world where people are marginalized and victimized on a daily basis for being 'freaks' and 'weirdos.' To that end, coming out isn't simply informing the world how you get your rocks off, but being counted. The big deal isn't in acknowledging one person's existence as a gay person, but their right to exist at all.

nelslus
02-15-2007, 05:11 PM
Apparently, the whole gays-are-just-trying-to-obtain-their-legal-rights-being-persecuted-getting- killed-getting-maimed-LGBT-teens-killing-themselves-over-how-the-world- views-them reasons-for-coming-out points about why some of us come out got lost by some here. Yep, the basketball player's coming out instead only had to do with his wish to flaunt his gay sex-sex-sex-in-your-face, OK, you caught us, fine, I must give up here. Sheesh. I was better off with leaving things at "deep sigh." :o

dryrunguy
02-15-2007, 05:47 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Visibility is important to who?? help me understand your point...Sex is predominantly and conventionally a private affair...I understand the gay marriage issue...But i have never understood this public "coming out" announcement..I mean who really cares??? I enjoy sex immensely no matter who knows or does not know what i am doing or who i am doing it with...Its so irrelevant i don't understand why this guy had to announce to the world he likes men!!!!It seems like he is trying to expunge some insecurity and guilt...If you are secure in who you are in your sex life, you don't need the approval of others

I assume, then, that you're equally opposed to wedding and anniversary announcements in the newspaper for straight couples? And someone having a picture of his wife on his office desk? After all, that would be "in your face" to gay people. Right?

Dry

Thats completely incompetent and off point...Ameche didn't announce a wedding to a man...he simply announced he prefers sex with men...heterosexuals don't make such public pronouncements...In States where gay marriage is legal one would assume the newspaper press for nupitals are status quo if the couple so desires...Finally, if i can calm my laughter long enough to type, why would a picture on a desk offend if it avoided the realm of the indecent(ala porn)...If i see a picture of two men on a desk, i don't know if its brothers, cousins, fishing or fraternity brothers or gay lovers....Why would i even care???


First highlight... Except in engagement, wedding and anniversary announcements, of course. And it's naive to assume that state law re: gay marriage have any bearing on what the "free press" publishes... Because the "free press" is bought and paid for by the political/social beliefs of whomever owns the outlet--not to mention the social pressures of those who read it and pledge to boycott readership/subscribership if they publish what's consistent with state law.

Second highlight... Explain that one who gay people who have been fired from their jobs for such "overt" expression. You may not care, Amon, but obviously some people do... Enough to fire hard working, competent people. That's just wrong. Any way you slice it.

Dry

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 05:51 PM
Apparently, the whole gays-are-just-trying-to-obtain-their-legal-rights-being-persecuted-getting- killed-getting-maimed-LGBT-teens-killing-themselves-over-how-the-world- views-them reasons-for-coming-out points about why some of us come out got lost by some here. Yep, the basketball player's coming out instead only had to do with his wish to flaunt his gay sex-sex-sex-in-your-face, OK, you caught us, fine, I must give up here. Sheesh. I was better off with leaving things at "deep sigh." :o

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean i was attempting to persecute...I assure you my jabs are far more direct...I was merely trying to understand a phenomenon that baffles...No need for the contention i am not your enemy

craighickman
02-15-2007, 06:16 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

nelslus
02-15-2007, 06:24 PM
Apparently, the whole gays-are-just-trying-to-obtain-their-legal-rights-being-persecuted-getting- killed-getting-maimed-LGBT-teens-killing-themselves-over-how-the-world- views-them reasons-for-coming-out points about why some of us come out got lost by some here. Yep, the basketball player's coming out instead only had to do with his wish to flaunt his gay sex-sex-sex-in-your-face, OK, you caught us, fine, I must give up here. Sheesh. I was better off with leaving things at "deep sigh." :o

Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean i was attempting to persecute...I assure you my jabs are far more direct...I was merely trying to understand a phenomenon that baffles...No need for the contention i am not your enemy

Yep, I'm paranoid, thanks for getting the point to all of this.

And nelslus upgrades from "deep sigh" to "ain't worth the bother."

tennisbrp
02-15-2007, 06:25 PM
Someone answer my locker room question when this was supposed to be a more fun thread.

I will say that maybe you have to be gay or close to gays to get some of the point. That is likely why it baffles Amon that visibility is important and it isn't about sex. I have 3 gay siblings (2 sisters and one brother). You do not have to be gay but if you see and grow up with people first hand and see how the closet very nearly killed one of those three you'd see it as a much different issue than just who you are sleeping with. It is much, MUCH deeper and watching somebody get through that is a wonderful thing and I will go to the ends of the earth for my courageous siblings.

On the other note, why is the locker room (as my comic approach tried to get a reaction from) a threat to other straights. I just don't get it still.

craighickman
02-15-2007, 06:27 PM
Someone answer my locker room question when this was supposed to be a more fun thread.

I will say that maybe you have to be gay or close to gays to get some of the point. That is likely why it baffles Amon that visibility is important and it isn't about sex. I have 3 gay siblings (2 sisters and one brother). You do not have to be gay but if you see and grow up with people first hand and see how the closet very nearly killed one of those three you'd see it as a much different issue than just who you are sleeping with. It is much, MUCH deeper and watching somebody get through that is a wonderful thing and I will go to the ends of the earth for my courageous siblings.

On the other note, why is the locker room (as my comic approach tried to get a reaction from) a threat to other straights. I just don't get it still.

It's only a threat to those who are painfully insecure.

craighickman
02-15-2007, 06:33 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Important to who Bea? To the gay person that is finally happy that the world knows? Like it would really matter to me if people accept what I am or what am feeling. I personally think that to much of an issue is being made of the gay/lesbian issue right now. People entering rehab to deal with whether they accept someone's sexuality is ridiculous in my opinion when there are so much more horible things with the world. If Tim Hardaway don't like them, that's his problem, I personally prefer people like him who say I HATE YOU upfront tnat the ones that pretend and deep down they cannot stand my guts.

I think if the gay/lesbian is happy that's all that matters. Life your life, love who you love and to hell with who accepts it or not. Let who has the right to judge you (to me the creator in this case) judge you. Remember in life not everyone is going to love everything about you no matter who you are. And to me what I see happening and I could be wrong, is gays/lesbians are forcing people to like them and accept them. News flash not everyone will, that's just the way life is.

Foxy





Here's my newsflash. I don't care who likes me or accepts me. But I will, under no circumstances, allow someone to treat me as second-class because of any aspect of who I am. And sometimes--no, I take that back--it always requires that I stand up to oppression and ism wherever they rear their ugly faces. If someone wants to consider that "pushing it on them", then that is, quite frankly, their problem.

I will not hide a part of who I am because a part of who I am makes someone else uncomfortable.

I couldn't care less about how uncomfortable someone else is. I repeat: that's their problem.

What you see is what you get.

Take it or leave it.

But I will not allow you to treat me as second-class.

And Foxy, that's not necessarily to you, but it's to anyone and everyone who sees things as your post points out.

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 06:51 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Important to who Bea? To the gay person that is finally happy that the world knows? Like it would really matter to me if people accept what I am or what am feeling. I personally think that to much of an issue is being made of the gay/lesbian issue right now. People entering rehab to deal with whether they accept someone's sexuality is ridiculous in my opinion when there are so much more horible things with the world. If Tim Hardaway don't like them, that's his problem, I personally prefer people like him who say I HATE YOU upfront tnat the ones that pretend and deep down they cannot stand my guts.

I think if the gay/lesbian is happy that's all that matters. Life your life, love who you love and to hell with who accepts it or not. Let who has the right to judge you (to me the creator in this case) judge you. Remember in life not everyone is going to love everything about you no matter who you are. And to me what I see happening and I could be wrong, is gays/lesbians are forcing people to like them and accept them. News flash not everyone will, that's just the way life is.

Foxy





Here's my newsflash. I don't care who likes me or accepts me. But I will, under no circumstances, allow someone to treat me as second-class because of any aspect of who I am. And sometimes--no, I take that back--it always requires that I stand up to oppression and ism wherever they rear their ugly faces. If someone wants to consider that "pushing it on them", then that is, quite frankly, their problem.

I will not hide a part of who I am because a part of who I am makes someone else uncomfortable.

I couldn't care less about how uncomfortable someone else is. I repeat: that's their problem.

What you see is what you get.

Take it or leave it.

But I will not allow you to treat me as second-class.

And Foxy, that's not necessarily to you, but it's to anyone and everyone who sees things as your post points out.

craighhickman: That makes a lot more sense than anything else i have read in this thread....Nor should you feel like a second class citizen...Good for you...i mean that

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 06:59 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D

mmmm8
02-15-2007, 07:02 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D




of course you would be (provided you are attracted to members of the same gender). Was that an actually serious question???

mmmm8
02-15-2007, 07:07 PM
Someone answer my locker room question when this was supposed to be a more fun thread.

I will say that maybe you have to be gay or close to gays to get some of the point. That is likely why it baffles Amon that visibility is important and it isn't about sex. I have 3 gay siblings (2 sisters and one brother). You do not have to be gay but if you see and grow up with people first hand and see how the closet very nearly killed one of those three you'd see it as a much different issue than just who you are sleeping with. It is much, MUCH deeper and watching somebody get through that is a wonderful thing and I will go to the ends of the earth for my courageous siblings.

On the other note, why is the locker room (as my comic approach tried to get a reaction from) a threat to other straights. I just don't get it still.

Ok. I guess I get it in theory. From personal experience, I, as a straight woman, have been uncomfortable before when gay women hit on me (not in locker rooms, in general). I also wouldn't feel quite comfortable sharing a locker room with men.

So, I guess I understand why some straight people would be uncomfortable being naked around people who may find them a sexual object. I don't think I've ever actually thought about that in a locker room, and I agree with craigH that one has to be insecure about him/herself to feel uncomfortable to the point of objecting sharing a locker room with gays.

Foxykhat
02-15-2007, 07:07 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Important to who Bea? To the gay person that is finally happy that the world knows? Like it would really matter to me if people accept what I am or what am feeling. I personally think that to much of an issue is being made of the gay/lesbian issue right now. People entering rehab to deal with whether they accept someone's sexuality is ridiculous in my opinion when there are so much more horible things with the world. If Tim Hardaway don't like them, that's his problem, I personally prefer people like him who say I HATE YOU upfront tnat the ones that pretend and deep down they cannot stand my guts.

I think if the gay/lesbian is happy that's all that matters. Life your life, love who you love and to hell with who accepts it or not. Let who has the right to judge you (to me the creator in this case) judge you. Remember in life not everyone is going to love everything about you no matter who you are. And to me what I see happening and I could be wrong, is gays/lesbians are forcing people to like them and accept them. News flash not everyone will, that's just the way life is.

Foxy





Here's my newsflash. I don't care who likes me or accepts me. But I will, under no circumstances, allow someone to treat me as second-class because of any aspect of who I am. And sometimes--no, I take that back--it always requires that I stand up to oppression and ism wherever they rear their ugly faces. If someone wants to consider that "pushing it on them", then that is, quite frankly, their problem.

I will not hide a part of who I am because a part of who I am makes someone else uncomfortable.

I couldn't care less about how uncomfortable someone else is. I repeat: that's their problem.

What you see is what you get.

Take it or leave it.

But I will not allow you to treat me as second-class.

And Foxy, that's not necessarily to you, but it's to anyone and everyone who sees things as your post points out.

And I do not see you, Nelsus, Bea or anyone else as second class I see us ALL as human beings. You all love who you love and if that makes you happy who am I to judge? Maybe my 68 square miles Island which by no mean embraces gays/lesbian does not permit to see what most if not all gays/lesbians have to endure and what the fight is all about.

One of the reasons I decided to stay out of this thread previously is that I did not want to be seen as if I have issues with anyone because of their sexuality. I just see this issue like a lots of other things in the US sensationalised. Trust me I used to have issues with black Americans constantly talking about their plights so maybe as I learn more I will understand a little more. Maybe sensationlise is to strong a word and again I don't mean it in a negative way. I don't know maybe I'm just a little more inclined to believe you, Nelsus and Bea's story of love than some celebrity, athlete or high profile person looking for 15 mins of fame.

And like I said before if guys are happy to heck with doesn't like you.

Foxy

craighickman
02-15-2007, 07:11 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D



Plenty people identify as gay but do not have sex. Not all straight people have sex either. Have you ever heard of celibacy? It's real for some people.

There is no spin here.

craighickman
02-15-2007, 07:14 PM
I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

You probably never had to. Hard to hide what people can see. I don't think saying what you are is a big deal. Why people interpret it as a big deal is more telling to me. Why is it threatening? It's news because many big names don't want to risk their incomes over it, but the fact that they could is proof enough that visibility is important.

Important to who Bea? To the gay person that is finally happy that the world knows? Like it would really matter to me if people accept what I am or what am feeling. I personally think that to much of an issue is being made of the gay/lesbian issue right now. People entering rehab to deal with whether they accept someone's sexuality is ridiculous in my opinion when there are so much more horible things with the world. If Tim Hardaway don't like them, that's his problem, I personally prefer people like him who say I HATE YOU upfront tnat the ones that pretend and deep down they cannot stand my guts.

I think if the gay/lesbian is happy that's all that matters. Life your life, love who you love and to hell with who accepts it or not. Let who has the right to judge you (to me the creator in this case) judge you. Remember in life not everyone is going to love everything about you no matter who you are. And to me what I see happening and I could be wrong, is gays/lesbians are forcing people to like them and accept them. News flash not everyone will, that's just the way life is.

Foxy





Here's my newsflash. I don't care who likes me or accepts me. But I will, under no circumstances, allow someone to treat me as second-class because of any aspect of who I am. And sometimes--no, I take that back--it always requires that I stand up to oppression and ism wherever they rear their ugly faces. If someone wants to consider that "pushing it on them", then that is, quite frankly, their problem.

I will not hide a part of who I am because a part of who I am makes someone else uncomfortable.

I couldn't care less about how uncomfortable someone else is. I repeat: that's their problem.

What you see is what you get.

Take it or leave it.

But I will not allow you to treat me as second-class.

And Foxy, that's not necessarily to you, but it's to anyone and everyone who sees things as your post points out.

And I do not see you, Nelsus, Bea or anyone else as second class I see us ALL as human beings. You all love who you love and if that makes you happy who am I to judge? Maybe my 68 square miles Island which by no mean embraces gays/lesbian does not permit to see what most if not all gays/lesbians have to endure and what the fight is all about.

One of the reasons I decided to stay out of this thread previously is that I did not want to be seen as if I have issues with anyone because of their sexuality. I just see this issue like a lots of other things in the US sensationalised. Trust me I used to have issues with black Americans constantly talking about their plights so maybe as I learn more I will understand a little more. Maybe sensationlise is to strong a word and again I don't mean it in a negative way. I don't know maybe I'm just a little more inclined to believe you, Nelsus and Bea's story of love than some celebrity, athlete or high profile person looking for 15 mins of fame.

And like I said before if guys are happy to heck with doesn't like you.

Foxy


I'm sure you've heard the phrase "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Perhaps the issue is sensationalized by some.

But it is always, always real.

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 07:16 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D




of course you would be (provided you are attracted to members of the same gender). Was that an actually serious question???

Are you a murderer if you have never killed anyone?? Is one an artist if he has never created any artwork??? A lot of people have fantasies and curiosities they never seriously consider acting on??? Is a spouse and adulterer if they find someone other than their spouse attractive sexually??? Sorry but spinning wont work...Some terms define behavior, whether you want them to or not...Now if you want to assert there is far more to your lifestyle than sex, i have no doubts about that...Heck a lot of guys have lifelong friends that they go out and drink beer and exchange intimate information with...yet thier behavior would never be considered gay because thier friendship though intimate is not sexual...But hey this is too sensitive a topic to get bogged down in symantics...I know its popular to assume heterosexuals like me are totally ignorant and insensitive to your plight...Thats not always the case...there is certianly much i do not understand about the lifestyle...Honestly i think i understand enough...I respect all human rights to choose thier own lifestyle...I have asked a few sincere questions and obviously struck quite a few nerves...One that seeks understanding must first be understanding...Heterosexuals are not stupid...We obviously are not well educated about the gay lifestyle...But i would be remiss if i didn't point out there seems to be a prevailing theory that only gays can make an intelligent comment on these issues...That dog just wont hunt

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 07:22 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D



Plenty people identify as gay but do not have sex. Not all straight people have sex either. Have you ever heard of celibacy? It's real for some people.

There is no spin here.




Yeah my friend thats spin...That ship has holes in the hull that would do the titanic proud...

mmmm8
02-15-2007, 07:23 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D




of course you would be (provided you are attracted to members of the same gender). Was that an actually serious question???

Are you a murderer if you have never killed anyone?? Is one an artist if he has never created any artwork??? A lot of people have fantasies and curiosities they never seriously consider acting on??? Is a spouse and adulterer if they find someone other than their spouse attractive sexually??? Sorry but spinning wont work...Some terms define behavior, whether you want them to or not...Now if you want to assert there is far more to your lifestyle than sex, i have no doubts about that...Heck a lot of guys have lifelong friends that they go out and drink beer and exchange intimate information with...yet thier behavior would never be considered gay because thier friendship though intimate is not sexual...But hey this is too sensitive a topic to get bogged down in symantics...I know its popular to assume heterosexuals like me are totally ignorant and insensitive to your plight...Thats not always the case...there is certianly much i do not understand about the lifestyle...Honestly i think i understand enough...I respect all human rights to choose thier own lifestyle...I have asked a few sincere questions and obviously struck quite a few nerves...One that seeks understanding must first be understanding...Heterosexuals are not stupid...We obviously are not well educated about the gay lifestyle...But i would be remiss if i didn't point out there seems to be a prevailing theory that only gays can make an intelligent comment on these issues...That dog just wont hunt

Were YOU straight/heterosexual before YOU had sex? You'll have to answer no to be consistent with your point.

(Oh, and I'm straight, so while there's more to my lifestyle than sex, too, it doesn't quite apply)

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 07:32 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D




of course you would be (provided you are attracted to members of the same gender). Was that an actually serious question???

Are you a murderer if you have never killed anyone?? Is one an artist if he has never created any artwork??? A lot of people have fantasies and curiosities they never seriously consider acting on??? Is a spouse and adulterer if they find someone other than their spouse attractive sexually??? Sorry but spinning wont work...Some terms define behavior, whether you want them to or not...Now if you want to assert there is far more to your lifestyle than sex, i have no doubts about that...Heck a lot of guys have lifelong friends that they go out and drink beer and exchange intimate information with...yet thier behavior would never be considered gay because thier friendship though intimate is not sexual...But hey this is too sensitive a topic to get bogged down in symantics...I know its popular to assume heterosexuals like me are totally ignorant and insensitive to your plight...Thats not always the case...there is certianly much i do not understand about the lifestyle...Honestly i think i understand enough...I respect all human rights to choose thier own lifestyle...I have asked a few sincere questions and obviously struck quite a few nerves...One that seeks understanding must first be understanding...Heterosexuals are not stupid...We obviously are not well educated about the gay lifestyle...But i would be remiss if i didn't point out there seems to be a prevailing theory that only gays can make an intelligent comment on these issues...That dog just wont hunt

Were YOU straight/heterosexual before YOU had sex? You'll have to answer no to be consistent with your point.

(Oh, and I'm straight, so while there's more to my lifestyle than sex, too, it doesn't quite apply)


Well before any human has sex there is no sexual behavior to describe...Are you familiar with the word asexual?? What a bout the term unuch??? What about the concept of masterbation only??? We can dance around symantical nothings all night...The term gay describes sexual behavior whether you want it to or not....

craighickman
02-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D



Plenty people identify as gay but do not have sex. Not all straight people have sex either. Have you ever heard of celibacy? It's real for some people.

There is no spin here.




Yeah my friend thats spin...That ship has holes in the hull that would do the titanic proud...

You see it as spin. That's on you.

But it's not.

It's reality.

I've read your questions. And they simply don't suffice as veritable analagies to the subject at hand.

But I'm not expressing an opinion. It is a mere fact that people can be gay without ever having sex. If a celibate man uses gay porn to bring himself to ecstasy (straight porn just won't cut it), would you still maintain that he wasn't gay because he's never actually had sex with a man?

This isn't spin. Nor is it a hypothetical.

It's real.

You don't have to see it nor accept it, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Wouldn't you consider yourself a lover even if you've never been in love?

mmmm8
02-15-2007, 07:34 PM
So, masturbation is not a sexual behavior? How about oral sex? Are you actually saying all virgins are asexual?

The word eunuch refers to someone who has been physically castrated. What does that have to do with sexuality?

craighickman
02-15-2007, 07:36 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D




of course you would be (provided you are attracted to members of the same gender). Was that an actually serious question???

Are you a murderer if you have never killed anyone?? Is one an artist if he has never created any artwork??? A lot of people have fantasies and curiosities they never seriously consider acting on??? Is a spouse and adulterer if they find someone other than their spouse attractive sexually??? Sorry but spinning wont work...Some terms define behavior, whether you want them to or not...Now if you want to assert there is far more to your lifestyle than sex, i have no doubts about that...Heck a lot of guys have lifelong friends that they go out and drink beer and exchange intimate information with...yet thier behavior would never be considered gay because thier friendship though intimate is not sexual...But hey this is too sensitive a topic to get bogged down in symantics...I know its popular to assume heterosexuals like me are totally ignorant and insensitive to your plight...Thats not always the case...there is certianly much i do not understand about the lifestyle...Honestly i think i understand enough...I respect all human rights to choose thier own lifestyle...I have asked a few sincere questions and obviously struck quite a few nerves...One that seeks understanding must first be understanding...Heterosexuals are not stupid...We obviously are not well educated about the gay lifestyle...But i would be remiss if i didn't point out there seems to be a prevailing theory that only gays can make an intelligent comment on these issues...That dog just wont hunt

Were YOU straight/heterosexual before YOU had sex? You'll have to answer no to be consistent with your point.

(Oh, and I'm straight, so while there's more to my lifestyle than sex, too, it doesn't quite apply)


Well before any human has sex there is no sexual behavior to describe...Are you familiar with the word asexual?? What a bout the term unuch??? What about the concept of masterbation only??? We can dance around symantical nothings all night...The term gay describes sexual behavior whether you want it to or not....

False.

Homosexual describes sexual behavior.

Gay is used to describe a state of being.

Big difference.

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 07:43 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D



Plenty people identify as gay but do not have sex. Not all straight people have sex either. Have you ever heard of celibacy? It's real for some people.

There is no spin here.




Yeah my friend thats spin...That ship has holes in the hull that would do the titanic proud...

You see it as spin. That's on you.

But it's not.

It's reality.

I've read your questions. And they simply don't suffice as veritable analagies to the subject at hand.

But I'm not expressing an opinion. It is a mere fact that people can be gay without ever having sex. If a celibate man uses gay porn to bring himself to ecstasy (straight porn just won't cut it), would you still maintain that he wasn't gay because he's never actually had sex with a man?

This isn't spin. Nor is it a hypothetical.

It's real.

You don't have to see it nor accept it, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Wouldn't you consider yourself a lover even if you've never been in love?

Oh puhlleeeeaaassssee..The said man is a sexually repressed maturbator with fantansies of his own gender....If he never acts on his fantasy he is not gay...Now lets say this repressed individual behaves as you suggests for years...Now a few years later his desires(which are dynamic) change and he begins to enjoy lesbian movies and eventually meets a woman that pulls him beyond his repression..Now his sexual experience includes masterbation on homosexual films and actual sex with a female friend...IS THAT MAN GAY??? craighickman: you can't run a lemon by me unless i allow it...Not in a patronizing mood right now

Okay my friends i enjoyed the discussion despite the testy nature of those that seem to think "straight" people have no right to comment on these issues....But i am checking out...If my lack of insight into the gay lifestyles offended anyone there was no intent and i apologize...Lighten up!!! Not all heterosexual are your persecutors or enemies...I think Tim Hardeway is an idiot personally

AmonRa777
02-15-2007, 07:46 PM
So, masturbation is not a sexual behavior? How about oral sex? Are you actually saying all virgins are asexual?

The word eunuch refers to someone who has been physically castrated. What does that have to do with sexuality?


You so consumed with looking for points of contention that you are not reading my text...I said no such thing..Don't interject words into my message so you can argue another moot point...

mmmm8
02-15-2007, 07:50 PM
So, masturbation is not a sexual behavior? How about oral sex? Are you actually saying all virgins are asexual?

The word eunuch refers to someone who has been physically castrated. What does that have to do with sexuality?


You so consumed with looking for points of contention that you are not reading my text...I said no such thing..Don't interject words into my message so you can argue another moot point...


I didn't put words in your mouth. You made examples saying that unless one has sex with others they are not of any sexual inclination.

Oh, well, I guess it really is moot trying to prove the earth isn't flat

craighickman
02-15-2007, 07:55 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D



Plenty people identify as gay but do not have sex. Not all straight people have sex either. Have you ever heard of celibacy? It's real for some people.

There is no spin here.




Yeah my friend thats spin...That ship has holes in the hull that would do the titanic proud...

You see it as spin. That's on you.

But it's not.

It's reality.

I've read your questions. And they simply don't suffice as veritable analagies to the subject at hand.

But I'm not expressing an opinion. It is a mere fact that people can be gay without ever having sex. If a celibate man uses gay porn to bring himself to ecstasy (straight porn just won't cut it), would you still maintain that he wasn't gay because he's never actually had sex with a man?

This isn't spin. Nor is it a hypothetical.

It's real.

You don't have to see it nor accept it, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Wouldn't you consider yourself a lover even if you've never been in love?

Oh puhlleeeeaaassssee..The said man is a sexually repressed maturbator with fantansies of his own gender....If he never acts on his fantasy he is not gay...Now lets say this repressed individual behaves as you suggests for years...Now a few years later his desires(which are dynamic) change and he begins to enjoy lesbian movies and eventually meets a woman that pulls him beyond his repression..Now his sexual experience includes masterbation on homosexual films and actual sex with a female friend...IS THAT MAN GAY??? craighickman: you can't run a lemon by me unless i allow it...Not in a patronizing mood right now

Okay my friends i enjoyed the discussion despite the testy nature of those that seem to think "straight" people have no right to comment on these issues....But i am checking out...If my lack of insight into the gay lifestyles offended anyone there was no intent and i apologize...Lighten up!!! Not all heterosexual are your persecutors or enemies...I think Tim Hardeway is an idiot personally

Who's being testy? I never said you had no right to comment on these issues.

I'm a gay man. If I have sex with a woman does that make me straight?

You seem to be making assumptions. I never said you were my enemy. But your remarks are full of ignorance and I am simply doing what I do in the face of ignorance.

If you continue to choose not to see that your perceptions of sexuality only apply in your world, that's fine.

We can all get down like that from time to time, I suppose.

But as you've said, you're not gay. Therefore, it seems bizarre that you profess to know so much about what gay is.

I am not what I do.

I am, however, what I am.

And try as you might, you don't get to define me.

Jay
02-15-2007, 08:46 PM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D



Plenty people identify as gay but do not have sex. Not all straight people have sex either. Have you ever heard of celibacy? It's real for some people.

There is no spin here.




Yeah my friend thats spin...That ship has holes in the hull that would do the titanic proud...

You see it as spin. That's on you.

But it's not.

It's reality.

I've read your questions. And they simply don't suffice as veritable analagies to the subject at hand.

But I'm not expressing an opinion. It is a mere fact that people can be gay without ever having sex. If a celibate man uses gay porn to bring himself to ecstasy (straight porn just won't cut it), would you still maintain that he wasn't gay because he's never actually had sex with a man?

This isn't spin. Nor is it a hypothetical.

It's real.

You don't have to see it nor accept it, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Wouldn't you consider yourself a lover even if you've never been in love?

Oh puhlleeeeaaassssee..The said man is a sexually repressed maturbator with fantansies of his own gender....If he never acts on his fantasy he is not gay...Now lets say this repressed individual behaves as you suggests for years...Now a few years later his desires(which are dynamic) change and he begins to enjoy lesbian movies and eventually meets a woman that pulls him beyond his repression..Now his sexual experience includes masterbation on homosexual films and actual sex with a female friend...IS THAT MAN GAY??? craighickman: you can't run a lemon by me unless i allow it...Not in a patronizing mood right now

Okay my friends i enjoyed the discussion despite the testy nature of those that seem to think "straight" people have no right to comment on these issues....But i am checking out...If my lack of insight into the gay lifestyles offended anyone there was no intent and i apologize...Lighten up!!! Not all heterosexual are your persecutors or enemies...I think Tim Hardeway is an idiot personally

Okay, I was planning on staying away from this thread because several people (craig and 4m8 in particular) were already saying the things i was thinking.

However, I must comment on the highlighted part. Not everything is black and white Amonra; there are shades of gray as well. In other words, there are countless different people in the world. Of course there are going to be heterosexual men who masturbate to videos or images of other men, as you have said, who are "sexually repressed" . However, there are men who are gay and ONLY masturbate accordingly.

As Craig has said earlier, being gay isn't a sexual behavior, it is a state of being. And as 4m8 has stated earlier, a person isn't straight until they have sexual intercourse with another person of the same gender. By your own admission, then, a person isn't straight until they have sex with another person of the opposite sex. you wouldn't agree with that, though, would you?
Then, if you don't agree with that statement, you are contradicting yourself.

AmonRa777
02-16-2007, 05:38 AM
Not to defend Tim Hardeway because i don't advocate hatred...But why is it necessary for some people to make their sexual behavior public knowledge??? Who consenting adults choose to sleep with is nobodies business...Its certainly no social crisis...The ole rule of "never kiss and tell" works for heterosexuals and gays alike!! I don't recall a day when i was forced to "come out of the closet" and confess my race!!!

***clears throat****

I'm responding now before reading the rest of the thread so if someone beat me to it.... so be it.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. First, if you look Black, like I do, you don't have to "confess your race!!!". Doesn't. Pass. The Laugh. Test.

And second, being gay isn't only about sexual behavior any more than being straight is. It's about how you live your life. Who you love. No straight person has to "come out" because in a heterosexist world a person is straight until proven/suspected-of-being/self-identified-as gay. Being out isn't exactly (only) about announcing with whom you have sex. It's about being open about a part of your life which is just as important to a person as it a heteros' girlfriend, spouse, and family, which we hear about all the time.

As Audre Lorde wrote, "Your silence will not protect you."

Nor will your ignorance.

craighickman: if you never had sex with a partner of your own gender, would you be considered gay??? Spin all you like but the terms gay and "straight" in this context describe sexual behavior....As for whether you are open or not...Who cares??? The people that want to define you by your private sex life are the ones with the issues...There is an obvious difference between being open about sexual behavior and flaunting it...Certainly you know that...It doesn't have to be about extremes...Truth usually isn't... My friend: next time you clear your throat please come with a better proffer than that...Dubya Bush can spin better than that :D



Plenty people identify as gay but do not have sex. Not all straight people have sex either. Have you ever heard of celibacy? It's real for some people.

There is no spin here.




Yeah my friend thats spin...That ship has holes in the hull that would do the titanic proud...

You see it as spin. That's on you.

But it's not.

It's reality.

I've read your questions. And they simply don't suffice as veritable analagies to the subject at hand.

But I'm not expressing an opinion. It is a mere fact that people can be gay without ever having sex. If a celibate man uses gay porn to bring himself to ecstasy (straight porn just won't cut it), would you still maintain that he wasn't gay because he's never actually had sex with a man?

This isn't spin. Nor is it a hypothetical.

It's real.

You don't have to see it nor accept it, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Wouldn't you consider yourself a lover even if you've never been in love?

Oh puhlleeeeaaassssee..The said man is a sexually repressed maturbator with fantansies of his own gender....If he never acts on his fantasy he is not gay...Now lets say this repressed individual behaves as you suggests for years...Now a few years later his desires(which are dynamic) change and he begins to enjoy lesbian movies and eventually meets a woman that pulls him beyond his repression..Now his sexual experience includes masterbation on homosexual films and actual sex with a female friend...IS THAT MAN GAY??? craighickman: you can't run a lemon by me unless i allow it...Not in a patronizing mood right now

Okay my friends i enjoyed the discussion despite the testy nature of those that seem to think "straight" people have no right to comment on these issues....But i am checking out...If my lack of insight into the gay lifestyles offended anyone there was no intent and i apologize...Lighten up!!! Not all heterosexual are your persecutors or enemies...I think Tim Hardeway is an idiot personally

Okay, I was planning on staying away from this thread because several people (craig and 4m8 in particular) were already saying the things i was thinking.

However, I must comment on the highlighted part. Not everything is black and white Amonra; there are shades of gray as well. In other words, there are countless different people in the world. Of course there are going to be heterosexual men who masturbate to videos or images of other men, as you have said, who are "sexually repressed" . However, there are men who are gay and ONLY masturbate accordingly.

As Craig has said earlier, being gay isn't a sexual behavior, it is a state of being. And as 4m8 has stated earlier, a person isn't straight until they have sexual intercourse with another person of the same gender. By your own admission, then, a person isn't straight until they have sex with another person of the opposite sex. you wouldn't agree with that, though, would you?
Then, if you don't agree with that statement, you are contradicting yourself.


Hilarious!!! in your haste to contend with me you made my point....Pyshcologist surveys say 63% of all men and 81% of all women admit to fantasies and curiosities about sex with someone of their gender....If these fantasies grow to the masterbation phase it does nt mean the person is gay....You are contradicting yourself while accusing me of doing that...I am not trying to minimize nor marginalize the gay lifestyle...If you want to describe the complexities of the homosexual lifestyle "gay" is not the word you should choose...Whether you fine people want to admit it or not, the word does indeed describe sexual behavior...

Are bisexual people gay??? How many women can actually be considered "straight" by the pretzel logic some of you are proffering....My points of contention in this thread do more justice to the complex nature and dynamic reality that is human sexual desire and erotic fantasy than the stuff i hear you guys arguing...But then again its clear to me some of you will say red whenever a "straight" person says green...We are all so stupid and uninformed on issues of human sexualty and the dynamic psychology that drives sexual desires and actions...

Moose
02-16-2007, 06:48 AM
For what it's worth, Hardaway issued this apology yesterday:

He later apologized for the remarks during a telephone interview with Fox affiliate WSVN in Miami.

"Yes, I regret it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said I hate gay people or anything like that," he said. "That was my mistake."

http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI39787/

Okay, so what was his mistake? Hating gay people, or saying out loud that he hates gay people?

The NBA also announced yesterday that Hardaway was "disinvited" to any of the festivities during All-Star weekend this weekend in Las Vegas.

AmonRa777
02-16-2007, 06:56 AM
For what it's worth, Hardaway issued this apology yesterday:

He later apologized for the remarks during a telephone interview with Fox affiliate WSVN in Miami.

"Yes, I regret it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said I hate gay people or anything like that," he said. "That was my mistake."

http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI39787/

Okay, so what was his mistake? Hating gay people, or saying out loud that he hates gay people?

The NBA also announced yesterday that Hardaway was "disinvited" to any of the festivities during All-Star weekend this weekend in Las Vegas.


I don't understand why he bothered to apologize...His meaning was quite clear...I can accept that he like many others do not understand how powerful a word 'hate' really is....But he went on to boast about being homophobic....No one doubts what homophobic means....Tim Hardeway is every bit the scoundrel that Rush Limbaugh, David Dukes, Pat Buchannon and other famous hate mongers are...I doubt fi anyone wants to hear his so called apology...No doubt he regrets exposing himself as an idiot

Moose
02-16-2007, 07:01 AM
For what it's worth, Hardaway issued this apology yesterday:

He later apologized for the remarks during a telephone interview with Fox affiliate WSVN in Miami.

"Yes, I regret it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said I hate gay people or anything like that," he said. "That was my mistake."

http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI39787/

Okay, so what was his mistake? Hating gay people, or saying out loud that he hates gay people?

The NBA also announced yesterday that Hardaway was "disinvited" to any of the festivities during All-Star weekend this weekend in Las Vegas.


I don't understand why he bothered to apologize...His meaning was quite clear...I can accept that he like many others do not understand how powerful a word 'hate' really is....But he went on to boast about being homophobic....No one doubts what homophobic means....Tim Hardeway is every bit the scoundrel that Rush Limbaugh, David Dukes, Pat Buchannon and other famous hate mongers are...I doubt fi anyone wants to hear his so called apology...No doubt he regrets exposing himself as an idiot

I'd imagine the apology has to be either the NBA's, his agent's, or someone in the spin control department's idea, Amon. He's getting trashed nationwide...ESPN, sports talk radio, the NBA. It's really meaningless at this point.

Foxykhat
02-16-2007, 07:18 AM
For what it's worth, Hardaway issued this apology yesterday:

He later apologized for the remarks during a telephone interview with Fox affiliate WSVN in Miami.

"Yes, I regret it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said I hate gay people or anything like that," he said. "That was my mistake."

http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI39787/

Okay, so what was his mistake? Hating gay people, or saying out loud that he hates gay people?

The NBA also announced yesterday that Hardaway was "disinvited" to any of the festivities during All-Star weekend this weekend in Las Vegas.


I don't understand why he bothered to apologize...His meaning was quite clear...I can accept that he like many others do not understand how powerful a word 'hate' really is....But he went on to boast about being homophobic....No one doubts what homophobic means....Tim Hardeway is every bit the scoundrel that Rush Limbaugh, David Dukes, Pat Buchannon and other famous hate mongers are...I doubt fi anyone wants to hear his so called apology...No doubt he regrets exposing himself as an idiot

I'd imagine the apology has to be either the NBA's, his agent's, or someone in the spin control department's idea, Amon. He's getting trashed nationwide...ESPN, sports talk radio, the NBA. It's really meaningless at this point.


It is obvious that this is all spin control., I doubt if anyone believe he's really sorry. I see the NBA also saying that he will nolonger represent them. I wonder how long that will be for, or he's get another chance once things die down like Merv Albert. I know different situation but they said he would never work as announcer again and we all know what happened.

Foxy

shtexas
02-16-2007, 08:28 AM
They can't stop talking about this on my local Ticket radio this morning. They have people calling in with their stories.

(In a strong Texas twang): "I had a roommate in college who turned out to be a gay. I didn't know then, but he seemed to be a cool guy. He's still a friend. He lives in Florida now but I talk to him on the phone sometimes". ::)

morct
02-16-2007, 08:29 AM
They can't stop talking about this on my local Ticket radio this morning. They have people calling in with their stories.

(In a strong Texas twang): "I had a roommate in college who turned out to be a gay. I didn't know then, but he seemed to be a cool guy. He's still a friend. He lives in Florida now but I talk to him on the phone sometimes". ::)

Wow, what an open minded guy! LOL ::)

jjnow
02-16-2007, 09:13 PM
LOL, morct. These people make me laugh. The former captain of my high school basketball team is out and about in college these days. Some individuals were reportedly "mortified." And whoever was mentioning this crafting of the locker room into some form of a sanctuary was spot on. Newsflash: most likely, there are always gay men in the locker room. There are always gay people everyone, always have been. I guess if it scares you to shower next to someone, just apply extra layers of deodorant. :-?

jj

FourTeller
03-06-2007, 06:09 PM
At the risk of reviving a debate that's perhaps better off left dormant, I think this thread shows just how much some people continue to equate sex with sexuality when the latter involves so much more than the former. Attraction, culture, family, government etc. all play a part in defining one's sexual being. For instance, a popular straight male fantasy is seeing two women together. Does this make men who have it gay, or even bisexual? Of course not, but what does it say about a male-dominated society that accepts and even celebrates an often distorted same-sex fantasy when it involves the opposite gender but shudders in revulsion at the mere notion of a gay man in their midst?

Why is it that a successful female tennis player (two actually) remains the most prominent homosexual athlete in any sport? Is it a coincidence that gay men seem to gravitate towards individual sports like figure skating, and that such pursuits often involve artistry, grace and other qualities that are perceived as more feminine than masculine? Yes, there are a lot more questions than answers or statements in this post and many of them involve stereotypes, which are themselves shaped by... what, exactly - do they come out of thin air? What do they say about male homosexuality in particular and how it is perceived by society?

My point is that those who do not see the coming out of a former NBA player as a big deal, even one whom I had personally never heard of until now (being a casual basketball fan who recognizes at least the major names), are in the minority. If it wasn't significant, why was it such a big story? If there were more openly gay/lesbian athletes, especially in team sports, it certainly wouldn't be. The fact that there aren't suggests what society's continued cultural attitudes towards homosexuality are. That some people perceive such coming out announcements as 'unnecessary' or 'having their faces rubbed into someone's "gayness"' also speaks volumes.

FT