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meadfish
10-13-2004, 11:41 AM
I have stated in other posts that I am not a very political person. It's not that I don't care about the issues, it's more that I don't have faith in the systems professing to be resolving the same issues. That said, I submit my observations of the debates I have seen. If I were a policeman taking the statements of 2 eyewitnesses, and could only believe one since the stories differed, I would believe Kerry. He has a matter of fact manner of speech that broods confidence and clarity. Bush on the other hand has a "coached" feel about him, almost like saying "please, you gotta believe me!" His few attempts at jokes (senator kennedy is the conservative democrat, etc) seemed to hurt his credibility, especially when he was the only one laughing :-/ Unfortunately, there is more at stake than just "the man". there are issues, platforms, staff positions etc. In the old days... candidates had similar ideals and values and the victor was the better "man" Now, one could be forced to vote for a worse man, if he stands on the better platform... sad :(

Kirkus
10-13-2004, 02:46 PM
I agree with your post, fishy (surprise, surprise). Except that I don't believe anyone is "forced" to vote for either. I suppose they could just choose not to vote, if they don't believe or like either candidate. But that just seems like a waste to me.

I heard a "talking head" say that more and more people are independently minded rather than Democrat or Republican. They care more about the individual issues rather than the packaged platforms of the 2 major parties. This obvious makes it harder to choose your candidate. You might like Bush's education plan, but prefer Kerry's tax policies... and so on.

That makes sense to me, unfortunately that just makes it a more difficult choice.

shtexas
10-14-2004, 02:01 AM
I also thought it was funny when Bush would make a joke and sort of pause for the applause he might get in front of a crowd of supporters, but nobody was laughing.

Kirkus brings up education. Being from Texas, I have watched Bush run on this issue now four times (twice for Governor). Each time he said he had a plan. Each time he spoke of how important it is. Each time I have been disappointed. He really has done nothing for education. I don't believe him any more on that issue.

I also was bugged when he was asked about jobs and he turned the issue to needing better education. First, he didn't answer the question. Second, I am sure that all those people in the technology fields that lost their jobs found that insulting. They are highly educated and they are out of work, or working for far less than they were in 2000, and without health insurance, and Bush is saying they need more education. Please!

Sebastien447
10-14-2004, 07:40 AM
Amazing ... I was waiting for someone to bring it up, but apparently that's not going to happen. The TAT pundits must be Kerrymen one and all!

The biggest gaff of all three debates last night and nobody says word one ... incredible!

In an otherwise even debate, Kerry hurt himself in so many ways by bringing up Cheney's lesbian daughter. Wow, what a bad choice!

Kirkus
10-14-2004, 09:51 AM
Amazing ... I was waiting for someone to bring it up, but apparently that's not going to happen. The TAT pundits must be Kerrymen one and all!

The biggest gaff of all three debates last night and nobody says word one ... incredible!

In an otherwise even debate, Kerry hurt himself in so many ways by bringing up Cheney's lesbian daughter. Wow, what a bad choice!

I'm not so sure it was the "biggest gaff" of all three, although it did seem a little odd. I'm not sure what the big deal is, afterall the entire nation knows she's a lesbian. No news here.

shtexas: I also noticed that when asked about raising the minimum wage, the President again turned his answer into one about education.

Sebastien447
10-14-2004, 11:43 AM
I'm not so sure it was the "biggest gaff" of all three, although it did seem a little odd. I'm not sure what the big deal is, afterall the entire nation knows she's a lesbian. No news here.



I'll help you out here kirki.

You don't bring the children of your opponent into a debate. It's called a cheap shot.

Kirkus
10-14-2004, 12:16 PM
I'll help you out here kirki.

You don't bring the children of your opponent into a debate. It's called a cheap shot.




I suppose... I've heard it described as such all day long. So I went back and read the transcript. The quote:

We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

Senator Kerry could have just as easily said "And I think if you were to talk to any gay man or lesbian....".

There was absolutely no need to bring Vice President Cheney's daughter into it. I agree, that was nothing more than a cheap shot.

meadfish
10-14-2004, 12:36 PM
The question was "Do you think homosexuality is a choice?" I felt like Kerry was defending Miss Cheney's lifestyle saying "If you ask her, she would say she's not choosing, she is just being herself" which I would take as a positive if I were inclined to that lifestyle. True an abstract reference may have drawn less heat... but I didn't see it as a shot at all.. let alone a cheap one :-/

shtexas
10-14-2004, 01:48 PM
I didn't see the reference to Cheney's daughter as a cheap shot at all. It is no secret she is a lesbian. She is out and proud. Most importantly, it was openly discussed in the VP debate with no problem.

Why the big deal now? Because there was nothing else for the conservatives to attack from the debate. Kerry was too strong. So, they created an issue and discussed it all day to inflame the public. Anything to avoid the real issues facing this country and the world.

Lynne Cheney says Kerry is not a good man. Let's not forget, it is the Bush/Cheney stance and record on gay rights that is reprehensible, not Kerry/Edwards.

My two cents.

Sebastien447
10-14-2004, 11:38 PM
I'm just saying it was a mistake to bring the child of your opponent into a debate.

As an Independent, I find it quite entertaining to watch the spin. Died in the wool Demos like shtexas saying there was absolutely nothing wrong with the reference, while the right completely flips ... GREAT STUFF!

I don't think it was Kerry's finest moment. I'll leave it at that. And I think he's making it worse by refusing to apologize. But I also believe that we all can agree that there are more important issues to be spending time on.

Doll_Face
10-15-2004, 12:17 AM
I think he intended it as a cheap shot. It's true, so he used it. I call it down and dirty politics.

Kerry all the way.

Sebastien447
10-15-2004, 01:26 AM
I think he intended it as a cheap shot. It's true, so he used it. I call it down and dirty politics.

Kerry all the way.

Am I reading this correctly ... or do you just like "down and dirty" politics???

shtexas
10-15-2004, 03:35 AM
I think doll face is saying if the Republicans are going to lie and take cheap shots, then the Democrats need to do the same.

If you ever noticed the fact checking that goes on you might see that the Bush/Cheney lies about Kerry are more egregious. Kerry may have said we spent $200 billion on the Iraq war, when it was really $120 billion, but the ESSENCE of his argument is true, because in the first Iraq war we spent $5 billion because we had real alliances. The point was how much more of a burden we took on without real alliances.

meadfish
10-15-2004, 06:29 AM
FYI: In my work I run a route which my customers are of many different ethnicities. I conducted a personal poll asking people if they thought the remark was intended as a cheap shot. Every person I asked took it that way. His statement apart from naming Miss Cheney would have made him more accepted I think, But Sebastien is right... He should have kept personal references directed at his opponent ;) I don't think that one remark though is enough to darken the way he commanded the rest of the debate. Today, I registered to vote for the first time ;D

leah_jewel
10-16-2004, 04:47 AM
Today, I registered to vote for the first time ;D

Good job fishy! That makes me happy.