PDA

View Full Version : Battleground God



Sebastien447
10-23-2004, 08:05 AM
I know TAT has been inundated with quizes, but I believe this one to be worth your time and effort. It will make you stop and think about religion and logic.

I am agnostic and I've always believed my convictions to be logic based. At this time, I'm not going to say how many "direct hits" or how many "bullets" I "bit" on Battleground God, but I will say that I don't entirely agree with the analysis of my answers. I don't want to share too much right now because I don't want to give anything away about the test. Maybe after everyone has had a chance to take the test we can talk about specifics.

Here is more explanation of Battleground God from the site:

In this activity you'll be asked a series of 17 questions about God and religion. In each case, apart from Question 1, you need to answer True or False. The aim of the activity is not to judge whether these answers are correct or not. Our battleground is that of rational consistency. This means to get across without taking any hits, you'll need to answer in a way which is rationally consistent.


http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm

meadfish
10-23-2004, 09:26 AM
The quiz is interesting, I took 2 direct hits, and bit one bullet. I also find the justification for some the the results a bit secular. Interesting though, thanks Seb.

I personally do believe in God, and the Gospel that Jesus is the only way to heaven. I don't claim a specific religion only because they are based too much on doctrinal protocol and not enough on simple faith. :-/ If I had to pick a religion that most closely resembles my beliefs, I would have to say Pentecostal.

Betsmoyo
10-23-2004, 09:55 AM
I took one direct hit and bit 2 bullets. I believe in God, go to church every Sunday at 7:30 am! The test kinda reflected my beliefs but there were some things i dont agree with.

Kirkus
10-23-2004, 06:49 PM
Half way through the thing I was getting pissed off. I was saying to my computer monitor, "Don't tell me I'm contradicting myself! You don't know me!"

I also wanted to change the answers from "True" and "False" to "Absolutely" and "Bullshit".

I took 3 direct hits and bit 2 bullets. Which, I suppose if you believe the battleground test as being reliable, I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground. ;D

Understanding the nature of posts I'll probably receive, I'm pretty much an atheist. Although there was a time.....

Sebastien447
10-23-2004, 11:49 PM
Wow, very interesting. I took two direct hits, didn't bite a bullet, and had a "near miss" (not exactly sure how that differs from biting a bullet). I agree with one of the direct hits, I did contradict myself. Though I do disagree with the other one ... again, save the specifics for later, after enough time has passed for everyone to have a chance to try the test. I know leah has also taken it, but hasn't posted here yet.

In the meantime, just a couple questions. And I think I'd better preface this by mentioning that I am in no way, shape, or fashion being critical of your beliefs. I am only trying to learn about them.

Fish, you said:

I personally do believe in God, and the Gospel that Jesus is the only way to heaven.
Does this mean that you believe that any person who does not believe in your God will not go to "heaven."

Kirkus, you said:

I'm pretty much an atheist
Are you not sure? Because that would make you agnostic like me.

Moose
10-24-2004, 12:20 AM
one direct hit, bit one bullet - and I was awarded the TPM Medal of Distinction.

My faith is what others might consider a rather odd amalgamation of being raised Catholic, being heavily influenced by Quakers, studying a lot of Buddhism, and being sober for nearly 13 years. While I am not a traditional churchgoer anymore, I pray and meditate daily.

I believe in a God who wants the absolute best for me (and for everyone else), and I believe that suffering generally is the result of the exercise of man's free will.

gernaserna
10-24-2004, 02:03 AM
This is one interesting test. I got one direct hit and two bullets. I was awarded the medal of distinction. I was raised Catholic but moved away from that and just believe in my heart. Catholicism as I got older was just too "fake" for me. Too much pomp and circumstance. I know some would consider me an Aesthiest, but I truly believe that if one plays life in a moral value with dealings of every day life...as in following the Ten Commandents to the best that we mortals can do, we all might just get to the promised place. Too many problems on this blue marble resolve around too many religions. Which one is right?

leah_jewel
10-24-2004, 06:45 AM
I had 3 direct hits and bit 2 bullets I think. I can't remember. Evidentally I contradict myself a lot but that's just because i'm human like everyone else.

Serna's right in saying that there are a lot of religions and in asking which one is right. The fact is that no one knows. And you or I will never know until we die, assuming that whichever religion any of us follow has some sort of afterlife that we'll experience after parishing.

Some people argue that following a religion makes you weak. By believing in a Diety whose existance has never been proven, you're just making excuses and beliving in fairy tales to make this world make sense to you.

I, myself, am not one of those people. However, I do have a problem with organized religion. Religion is a bunch of doctrines and different takes on different ideals and such. Thus, I focus more on my personal Faith with my God instead of getting caught up in the "we follow this rule but not this one and we do this on Sundays but not this and we're right" type thinking.

I'm not entirely sure all of that made sense, but it's the best I could do to explain my feelings on the matter.

Betsmoyo
10-24-2004, 06:54 AM
This is one interesting test. I got one direct hit and two bullets. I was awarded the medal of distinction. I was raised Catholic but moved away from that and just believe in my heart. Catholicism as I got older was just too "fake" for me. Too much pomp and circumstance. I know some would consider me an Aesthiest, but I truly believe that if one plays life in a moral value with dealings of every day life...as in following the Ten Commandents to the best that we mortals can do, we all might just get to the promised place. Too many problems on this blue marble resolve around too many religions. Which one is right?

I dont think its one religion is right. Has anyone here seen the movie Dogma? I know its REALLY dumb to apply that movie to this but its kinda right. It doesnt matter what religion or faith uou have as long as you have faith in something.

Sebastien447
10-24-2004, 06:57 AM
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" - Karl Marx



Organized religion has been the number one cause of war, massacre and destruction. But I still think the planet might have been worse off, if not for religions to keep people in line and give them a reason to live good lives.

meadfish
10-24-2004, 07:44 AM
Sebastien, I think I know you well enough in this short time to know you would only ask out of curiosity and not criticism. ;)

Does this mean that you believe that any person who does not believe in your God will not go to "heaven."
I believe the bible to be true, and the things I believe stem from what the bible says. That said... in the Bible, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) So to answer your question Sebastien... if someone does not accept Jesus, their own unforgiven sin keeps them out of heaven. I beleive God offers everyone an invitation to heaven. Some choose to accept it, and some choose not to. So if you don't believe in "my god" that should not offend you. If you do believe in "my god" then believing the bible goes with it and you also should not be offended. I was a youth pastor for several years and have studied many religions and had numerous personal experiences that have led me to the faith which I now profess. I only tell you what that faith is, I don't condemn anyone who does not also believe it :)

meadfish
10-24-2004, 07:50 AM
Also, could someone articulate for me the real difference between agnostic and atheism? The way I see it, you believe in God or you don't. Why does there need to be 2 names for not believing? Sorry if this seems like ignorance, it has just never been explained in a way where I understand ???

Kirkus
10-24-2004, 07:57 AM
Kirkus, you said:
Are you not sure? Because that would make you agnostic like me.
I guess I shouldn't have been evasive. Let me rephrase:

I do not believe in the existence of God, a god, or any higher power. However, I do not condemn or disrespect anyone who does.

leah_jewel
10-24-2004, 08:11 AM
Also, could someone articulate for me the real difference between agnostic and atheism? The way I see it, you believe in God or you don't. Why does there need to be 2 names for not believing? Sorry if this seems like ignorance, it has just never been explained in a way where I understand ???

An atheist is someone who utterly denies the existance of a God.

An agnostic is someone who's on the fence. They think there could be a higher power but they're not sure. They're non-commital on the issue until they're shown proof one way or another.

meadfish
10-24-2004, 08:11 AM
I dont think God would damn someone to hell fpr being the way he made themI am curious what you mean by this- I believe all people are equal in God's eyes since we are all His creation. If someone becomes something supposedly unpleasing to God, isn't that their choice, not God's?

Betsmoyo
10-24-2004, 08:22 AM
Kind of. If somebody chose to live against God and defy him and never repented or lived their entire life like that i dont think God would welcome them with open arms but i dont know that. He could be like the dad in the story of the protical son I dont know exactly but if he made someone and they were gay i dont agree w/ the church sayin the wont go to heaven.

meadfish
10-24-2004, 08:47 AM
but if he made someone and they were gay i dont agree w/ the church sayin the wont go to heaven. Leviticus 18:22 says "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Another version calls it destestable. I don't think God would "make" some one as a detestable abomination. I truly don't want to start a debate about it, but I believe a person chooses their sexuality. Some may have influences in their upbringing that made it seem natural, but still a choice. I'm sure I will catch fire for that statement... but from a biblical standpoint, that is my view.

Betsmoyo
10-24-2004, 08:53 AM
I dont agree with the bible completely. I have a friend who is gay and they tried not to be and went out with girls and he couldnt change. Its not a choice for some people cause if he had the choice im sure he wouldnt choose to be gay.

Sebastien447
10-24-2004, 09:24 AM
Kirkus wrote:

I do not believe in the existence of God, a god, or any higher power.

That doesn't make you an atheist ... as leah stated, an atheist denies the existance of a "God." An atheist is 100% certain that a higher power does not exist, has faith, if you will, that God does not exist. Anything short is agnostic.

Fish wrote:

I only tell you what that faith is, I don't condemn anyone who does not also believe it

The word "faith" is the crux of any religion. One must believe wholeheartedly without question. I was raised Catholic, and there was much talk about faith. I never had it, still don't. Those who have this "faith" amaze me because it is something that I know that I will never have.

For me, religion exists in the spirituality that I find in nature. It is an inter-connectedness between all living things. I choose to live in the mountains because I feel my "God" when I walk out of my house and into the trees. I don't see God, it's is a feeling. I am certain that God exists, yet unsure, because I am human. And religions help humans deal with this incertitude. Though, when I'm out amongs the trees and living things, I can feel a spiritual power so strongly, but then I think ...

... could just be the methane gas from the Elk poop (My God has a great sense of humor)

Sebastien447
10-24-2004, 09:48 AM
but from a biblical standpoint, that is my view.


You might be better off not going there ... the Bible contradicts itself at every turn, espouses capital punishment for children etc. etc. etc. Those who have "faith" can explain away all of the inconsistencies. Those who don't, see it as a collection of ancient writings compiled for a noble cause.

Kirkus
10-24-2004, 10:16 AM
Holy shit! Where do I start???


Leviticus 18:22 says "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Another version calls it destestable. I don't think God would "make" some one as a detestable abomination. I truly don't want to start a debate about it, but I believe a person chooses their sexuality. Some may have influences in their upbringing that made it seem natural, but still a choice. I'm sure I will catch fire for that statement... but from a biblical standpoint, that is my view. That's the exact reason I don't believe in God. I know for a fact that homosexuality is NOT a choice. And for "God" to allow homosexuality in his "children" and then detest the very thing that he allowed is, in a word, crap.

I know a man who prayed and fasted earnestly for years for God to "deliver" him from his homosexuality. He even went so far as to ask a pentecostal preacher to have the spirit of homosexuality "cast" from him. That's how much he wanted to please "his God". Of course he was never "delivered".

I've spent many years defending gays in the fight to be recognized as something other than "abominations". And I know you're going to take this personally and maybe a public forum isn't the place to get into this, but I think anyone who has the nerve to voice an opinion on something they have no personal experience with is unfortunate, at best.

Sebastien says:

That doesn't make you an atheist ... as leah stated, an atheist denies the existance of a "God." An atheist is 100% certain that a higher power does not exist, has faith, if you will, that God does not exist. Anything short is agnostic.Fine. If you don't want to be the only agnostic in the thread I'll support you and call myself agnostic also. ;) But I know what I believe.

Betsmoyo
10-24-2004, 10:22 AM
[quote author=Kirkus link=board=TAReligion;num=1098569136;start=15#21 date=10/24/04 at 17:16:47]Holy shit! Where do I start???

That's the exact reason I don't believe in God. I know for a fact that homosexuality is NOT a choice. And for "God" to allow homosexuality in his "children" and then detest the very thing that he allowed is, in a word, crap.

[quote/]

I agree. I believe in God and i am Catholic and dont plan on switching religions but im not a devout Catholic who completely agrees w/the Church and the bible. I just dont think EVERYTHING in the bible is what God wanted. A lot of it yes but all of it no. Being Gay isnt a choice by any means. I dont agree with the church on gays premarital sex and abortion i wouldnt have an abortion but a woman should have the choice to do so.

Moose
10-24-2004, 10:27 AM
some real interesting chatter...hope raising the subject doesn't end up coming back to haunt us (those with these pumpkin smilies, anything is possible).

I think everyone here believes that it is truly a noble cause to lead a good life. Whether that is the byproduct of their own theology, or their own belief system doesn't really matter.

I see myself as "spiritual", rather than "religious". What I call God is the byproduct of my experience and belief, rather than my education.

And I don' believe that Someone so awesome would create a human being only to condemn his actions. God, as I see Him, loves EVERYONE.

3mlm
10-24-2004, 10:33 AM
Very interesting thread.

I consider myself an atheist but got 2 direct hits because even though I think it's not rational to believe there's a god, I do think it's justified.

Believing there's no god is just as much faith as believing there is one.

Believing in scientific theories is just as much faith as believing in the bible.

Scientific theories are frequently discredited.

The bible is frequently contradictory.


meadfish
10-24-2004, 10:43 AM
And I know you're going to take this personally and maybe a public forum isn't the place to get into this, but I think anyone who has the nerve to voice an opinion on something they have no personal experience with is unfortunate, at best. Of course I don't take it personally cuz I love ya ;). And... how do you know that I don't speak from personal experience? And... I don't have personal experience with wife beating, but I can give an opinion on the issue can't I? Although I can't give an opinion on someone who says they can't fight the urge to be a wife beater, since I have no such urges? And could someone show me specific contradictions in the bible? I know of none. The bible was written by different individuals giving their account of certain events. If two people see an accident they may give different accounts but both can be true. Just seen from different aspects. Perhaps I do blindly place my faith in a book written my mere men, but that same faith believes that one God inspired the writings of said men. If the bible was proven to be a complete farse, my faith in God would remain. I had the faith in God first, the bible just confirmed it :)

meadfish
10-24-2004, 10:52 AM
some real interesting chatter...hope raising the subject doesn't end up coming back to haunt us
I agree with Moose! I hope everyone sees my views as opinions and not attacks. I have seen similar threads ruin friendships, relationships and some small pets :P
Seriously though... I am grateful for how we are able to discuss an issue without offense or censorship. For sure we all qualify for "TAT heaven"

Sebastien447
10-24-2004, 11:07 AM
I agree with Moose! I hope everyone sees my views as opinions and not attacks. I have seen similar threads ruin friendships, relationships and some small pets

Well, I've seen a thread like this land a Great Dane in therapy! But I started it only because I knew that TAT members would be able to "handle" it.

So far, I'd have to say ... not a total disaster :P

Your beliefs, opinions, thoughts are fully welcome as far as I'm concerned ... we humans need to learn to talk about this stuff, don't ya think? Could possibly, with some small step, avoid a few wars this way?!

Kirkus
10-24-2004, 11:10 AM
So far, that's been the case around here. (Except for the Great Thread Deletion of 2004 :-[ )

I totally respect everyone's opinion and right to be free... in all ways.

(Unless you equate homosexuality to wife beating :P )

meadfish
10-24-2004, 11:14 AM
(Unless you equate homosexuality to wife beating :P )Clearly, our fearless leader has inadvertently admitted to his propensity to wife beating :o

Betsmoyo
10-24-2004, 11:27 AM
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. At least you all have some sort of beliefs its better than nothing. In the words of the INCREDIBLY AWESOME, me, Its all good...

gernaserna
10-24-2004, 11:45 AM
Yikes and double yikes: Religion and Politics, both can bring out the debate stick very quickly. To get back to the Homosexual thing...I, as you probably can tell from some of my other post, am a Homosexual male. Now I know in my heart and soul that it wasn't a choice. I have had these feeling and stirrings since I was 5 or 6. I was never molested as child, never abused in any manner. It just is. I am who I am and am damn happy with my life. I have a partner, who I have been with for 81/2 years, parents who love me unconditionally and my life is full of happines...everyone here has made very valid and intelligent statements. It all boils down to one thing...we all here should just accept each other for who we are as individuals. None are totally right and none are totally wrong. It is like Leah_Jewel said. We are just human. If there is a God that will judge us, then I may be doomed...we may all be doomed. We won't know until the fat lady sings...or Ruben Studdard sings.

Kirkus
10-24-2004, 11:59 AM
Well said, my friend. Here here.


...or Ruben Studdard sings. ;D LOL

meadfish
10-24-2004, 12:05 PM
...or Ruben Studdard sings.


Well said, my friend. Here here.

;D LOL



Can I opt for Clay Aiken? :P

I do agree that we are who we are, and that we must all accept the individuality that makes us so. Now I must go to revitalize the Politics thread ;)

leah_jewel
10-24-2004, 01:37 PM
Can I opt for Clay Aiken? :P


Don't pick on my Clay! I shall have to smite thee!

gernaserna
10-24-2004, 10:37 PM
Yes Clay rocks!!!! He should have been the winner. PERIOD!!! Let's start a Clay thread under the music forum.

Moose
10-24-2004, 10:52 PM
Is there a Clay test we can all take. I'm probably take about 10 bullets, and 7 direct hits!

Doll_Face
10-24-2004, 11:30 PM
Very interesting test. I bit two bullets and had one direct hit (I didn't agree with one of my hits). I'm Methodist and believe God wants the best for us, but he gives us free will to choose our own fate. I'm comforted in believing that God will never forsake me.

I was reading through the thread and had to stop and post my own results before I read any further. I wanted to give my true opinion without any bias.

I'll be back later.

Doll_Face
10-24-2004, 11:50 PM
I have to say we handled this topic maturely and with compassion.

TAT is a very healthy place - I'm honored to be a member.

Sebastien447
10-25-2004, 12:27 PM
I have to say we handled this topic maturely and with compassion.

TAT is a very healthy place - I'm honored to be a member.

I'd have to say that TAT is equally honored to have you!


And one last thing about "atheism" ... I've always enjoyed what this fine actress had to say ...

"I'm an atheist, and that's it. I believe there's nothing we can know except that we should be kind to each other and do what we can for people." - Katharine Hepburn

Spoil-sport
10-26-2004, 07:01 AM
I bit the bullet twice, took no direct hits. Got some kind of medal. But all that mattered to me was that my logic was infallible and I took no hits. And that my answers were consistent.

Kirkus
11-01-2004, 08:35 AM
For Kirkus and Sebastien:

Do you believe in things like karma, reincarnation or treating people like you would want them to treat you? I am just curious.

Do you think people have souls or spirits? When someone dies do you think that spirit of who they are just disappears?

What would it take for you to believe in a higher power?



I don't believe in karma or reincarnation and I think all people should be treated with dignity and respect. I don't believe people have souls or spirits and when we die I believe that's just the end.

If I woke up tomorrow morning and no child was suffering on this planet, I might consider the existence of a higher power.

Sebastien447
11-01-2004, 08:48 AM
I believe almost anything is a possibility, including reincarnation. I most definitely believe in treating people as I'd want to be treated ... and with that in mind, sometimes it sure does seem like karma is a force in our world.

I believe that there's a spirit inside me. I feel very strongly that this spirit will continue on somehow after I die. I've always felt that, and it's a feeling ... nothing to do with any organized religion.

How bout you PJ, or anyone who cares to share?

renegade711
11-01-2004, 11:39 AM
8) A curious thread, from is there a God, to spirits and reincarnation. I think we tend to blame God for the things mankind has done to each other.

I don't imagine God wanted all those priests who represented Him to molest hundreds of children.

meadfish
11-02-2004, 08:12 AM
About God's children suffering...

I have a daughter who is 7 years old. Let's say I was taking my daughter to lunch and I was in an accident. Say my daughter was severely injured and might die. What if the other driver was drunk and stoned? What would you tell me? "It's not your fault meadfish, you love your daughter and would never want this." or "It is a terrible result of living in a world with imperfect people." or even "It was the choice of the other driver that hurt your daughter, not your choice." Nice as those sayings are, none of them would end her suffering. I would have to accept that, and only try to ease it.

God is the Father and we are the child. He doesn't want anyone to suffer. PJVA said earlier in this thread that she took a hit because she said quote "Then they blew up and raked me over the coals when I said that God could do anything even make square circles. What's wrong with that?" Well God can't "do" anything. Can I go into my backyard and hit my dog in the head with a shovel? You would say I can, but I'm really not that brutal. Plus, my kids are playing with the dog, and even then those pesky SPCA people would have me locked up!! So really I can't. Or more precisely, the consequences that would result are unacceptable so I can't. In my bible it says "God is holy, His eyes cannot look upon sin". What? God can't look at sin?? He could, but then He wouldn't be Holy, and then He wouldn't be God. So back to suffering... Of course God could end all suffering by taking away mans free will, but the consequences are unacceptable, so He can't" <><

meadfish
11-02-2004, 09:12 AM
Meadfish, ....You shouldn't think that because someone hurts an innocent child or animal that it's God's fault because he allowed it to happen.That was the point I was trying to make, did it not seem that way? I don't believe in reincarnation as a system of righting wrongs or anything. This like most of my dogmatic views stem from my biblical beliefs. I do agree though PJVA, we are responsible for our actions, God is not responsible for our actions ;)

meadfish
11-02-2004, 11:16 AM
Meadfish,

Sorry I didn't read your post carefully enough. I still say that God can do anything he/she would want to . God could be in control of all our actions ....but he/she does not want that because it wouldn't serve the purpose of the long term plan God has.

Just curious PJVA and others too, in you opinion, what is God's "Long Term Plan"? any thoughts?

As far as Jesus being reincarnated, I'm sure it is believed by those who believe in reincarnation, but early christians? I find that hard to believe. Early christians would have some version of scripture where it is written: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," (Hebrews 9:27)

Also, I found this little tidbit. This is not to slam your beliefs PJVA, but to show another reason why I personally don't believe it-

"The scientific rebuttal to reincarnation is quite simple. Because of the population explosion, more people are currently living on the earth than have ever lived on the earth for the entire history of humankind. In other words, over half of the people who have ever lived on earth have never died even once! There simply are not enough dead souls to go around for a second time. This does not absolutely eliminate reincarnation, but it does severely restrict its extent, especially for those who have claimed to have lived several times before."

Sebastien447
11-03-2004, 11:13 AM
"I've never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith -- it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe."

- Robert Heinlein

meadfish
11-03-2004, 12:28 PM
The point you mention regarding population doesn't phase me ....

PJVA, please understand it was not my intention to "phase" you. I respect your opinion and values and was merely posting mine. I enjoy reading your posts throughout the site (except the tennis section, I can't stand tennis!). I think it is healthy to see others' views on important topics. If we try to phase eachother that's when feelings could get hurt and I would never want that ;)

Sebastien447
06-12-2005, 11:53 AM
This is so old that I thought some of you might have missed it ...

Go here (http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm) before reading the thread

Doll_Face
06-12-2005, 12:32 PM
My Mom said I was born with a veil over my face, and trust me PJVA, I know exactly what you're talking about. I sense all kinds of things ... it's scary, but I've learned to accept it.

To tell you the truth, I didn't read all of this thread because I got scared. [smiley=laugh.gif] Thanks, Seberpootie!